INDY BIRD
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| posted on 3/1/06 at 09:24 PM |
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blackbird engine help please to stop oil starvation
I have purchased a lowered sump and baffle plate for the blackbird engine but have seen and heard of these engines suffering from oil starvation and
then BANG.
do you reccomend a accusump and if so where best to get one and where would be the best place to plum this into.
or do you think just the sump and Baffle will do the job??????
or if you have any other sudgetions that will not frighten the bank manager they would be most welcome.
Cheers
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 3/1/06 at 09:33 PM |
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If you are taking it on track and its in a front engine longitudinal orientation (ie not the same way as it sits in the bike) then having heard of
many birds going bang like this, I honestly think the only way to be safe is to dry sump it, even engines with accusumps have had problems in front
engined cars, let alone ones with baffle plates.
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Genesis
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| posted on 3/1/06 at 09:42 PM |
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Hiya INDY...
Without knowing what your intended use, is I'd agree with D'Engine Man... 
However, if you're not tracking it... chances are it'll be ok sumped and baffled.
Going fishin'
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 3/1/06 at 09:49 PM |
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LOL Im no expert on the blackbird, its just that I discovered the Yahoo BEC list and started building mine about 4 years ago when the 'bird was
more popular, so Ive heard a lot of the horror stories and even witnessed two 'bird engine'd cars (I think with accusumps) go pop on the
same corner of the same circuit (Anglesey) on the same day, both suffering from starvation to the same part of the engine (No.3 big end I think)
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INDY BIRD
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| posted on 3/1/06 at 09:55 PM |
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yes will deffinately want to track the car thats what they are made for.
dry sump i cannot locate a supplier for blackbirds and was advised accusump the best alternative to this.
but donot want the first outing to be a new engine.
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INDY BIRD
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| posted on 3/1/06 at 10:31 PM |
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Surley the same question applies for the ZX12 lump as well.
so i guess its you pay your money and take your choice.
i just got of the phone to a friend who works at dax and he runs a bussa turbo std everything and not even chop the sump and has no probs also he said
the zx12 dax is the same.
who do you belive??? i suppose your wright chris poss leave and hope for the best ?????
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Genesis
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| posted on 3/1/06 at 10:33 PM |
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Tracking eh? Options as Chris says... drysumping isn't a guarantee against oil starvation on these engines on long corners.
Take a chance - I would - replace when necessary...
Going fishin'
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Jon Ison
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| posted on 3/1/06 at 10:43 PM |
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Ive run Bird engines for 3 years now, I'm 1/2 way between Chris and Gennisis on this one, don't even think about going near a track with
just a baffle but I would be happy too do so with an accusump, pace do a dry sump for the bird but its mega bucks, if you do fit an accusump
don't fit it in the oil cooler line, (is this where the blown birds had there plumbed in Chris?) because the oil cooler runs at reduced pressure
and then dumps back too sump without going near the bearings on a bird, it needs too be plumbed in where the oil pressure switch is fitted anywhere
else it is doing nothing.
#3 is always the one too go unless the engine is modded, requires the balancer shaft removing, oil ways blocking and crank machining, problem is #3
and the balancer shaft share the same oil feed so #3 starves 1st.
If you value your wallet don't go on track without minimum accusump.
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INDY BIRD
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| posted on 3/1/06 at 10:43 PM |
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Thanks chris good way to start the new year with a big bill and havent even used the car yet.
may be a possability to change the engine was hoping this would be last resort as it rund quite well not as quick as the zx12 but great fun and also i
have heard r1s are a ig to wire up?????.
maybe i will sell the whole car as is great on the road ust would like to get on a track at some point.
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carnut
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| posted on 3/1/06 at 10:45 PM |
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I blew a blackbird engine with a shortened and baffled sump on the way to my sva test.
I rebuild the engine and fitted a dry sump system and have been doing trackdays and plenty of road miles since than without any problem.
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INDY BIRD
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| posted on 3/1/06 at 10:50 PM |
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Thanks jon good advice where is the best place to get a accusump from and diagrams for fitting as would be worthless otherwse.
thanks in advance
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Wadders
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| posted on 4/1/06 at 12:42 AM |
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My mate blew a bird when it was still in the bike! oil/crank related problem. Nice Mr Honda san gave him a nice shiny new one for free, so i suppose
it don't count. 
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Hellfire
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| posted on 4/1/06 at 11:09 AM |
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The trouble is, you can get frightened into fitting a dry sump with all the stories when it might not need one.
Heres a possible solution. Run it with a chopped and baffled sump but be sure to fit a quality oil pressure/temperature gauge. That way, you could
track it and also keep a close eye on the oil pressure. If you see a drop in pressure on corners, come off track and don't go back until
you've fitted an accusump at least.
Just a thought
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INDY BIRD
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| posted on 4/1/06 at 06:43 PM |
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Thanks hellfire any ideas where to locate an accusump from would be great.
ill visit demo tweaks for oil press gauge.
Any furhter suggestions would be great from the allseein all knowing locost clbub members.
Cheers
Sean
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Hellfire
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| posted on 4/1/06 at 06:50 PM |
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Sean,
have a look on think auto website.
Also keep an eye on e-bay, as they sometimes come up for sale now and again.
Phil
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 4/1/06 at 06:54 PM |
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quote:
if you do fit an accusump don't fit it in the oil cooler line, (is this where the blown birds had there plumbed in Chris?)
Not sure John but that may well be the case. You may remember it being discussed on the Yahoo list, it was about 3 years ago on a BaT day at Anglesey,
two F27s I seem to recall built together by a couple of friends.
quote:
i just got of the phone to a friend who works at dax and he runs a bussa turbo std everything and not even chop the sump and has no probs also he said
the zx12 dax is the same.
who do you belive??? i suppose your wright chris poss leave and hope for the best ????
I dont think its a case of believing one or the other as your mate at Dax is talking about two different engines. You can't necessarily
translate that experience to because its a known thing that the bird is very succeptable to oil starvation if everything's not exactly bang on
right. Having said that, a friend of mine run a ZX12 Stuart Taylor and he went dry sump after experiencing a bit of surge and not wanting to chance
it, and the large majority of busa owners dry sump (partially to protect the investment I guess) so even those engines have question marks over
them.
quote:
Heres a possible solution. Run it with a chopped and baffled sump but be sure to fit a quality oil pressure/temperature gauge. That way, you could
track it and also keep a close eye on the oil pressure
I personally feel thats quite a risky strategy, its very hard to constantly watch gauges in the middle of fast corners and even if you've got a
passenger doing the monitoring and you catch it as it happens, it doesnt take very long to start picking up a bearing when the oil pressure drops at
12k rpm so you might still end up doing damage even if it doesnt show up immediately. As an example when I blew my first blade engine, it dropped its
oil in about the 3rd session of the trackday (due to the sump plug going AWOL), yet I filled it back up and ran it again for the entire afternoon
without issue before it seized in the last session of the day. 
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Hellfire
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| posted on 4/1/06 at 07:11 PM |
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I realise it's a risky strategy Chris but it may give some indication of how the engine is coping before it goes bang altogether.
I believe your friend with the Stuart Taylor ZX12R was talked into fitting a dry sump and afterwards, wished he'd stuck with the chopped/baffled
sump - unless that was just a story he made up, in order to sell the sump. He certainly didn't mention surge being the reason for dry sumping.
But then again why would he - he wouldn't have sold the sump if he had
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INDY BIRD
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| posted on 4/1/06 at 08:06 PM |
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I will be visiting the Autosport international show on Sunday 15th so perhaps they may have some advice on what to do and speak to some people who may
know and think auto are exhibiting and could pick up a sump there it looks like the way to go to have the % reduced of the BIG BANG.
all i want to do is race the bloody car round a track all this i hope its worth it.???
Cheers Sean
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marc n
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| posted on 4/1/06 at 08:20 PM |
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a mate of mine has been using a blackbird for grasstracking for a couple of years now, mounted the correct way with original sump profile ( i.e the
deep well ) and a baffle plate, he found halfway through each season it needed a rebuild due to oil starvation of no.3 ( i think ) and they only do 3
- 4 laps a race round a half mile oval
i would think an accusump would be the minimum requirement if venturing to the track ( i have no personal experiance of them but have heard they work
well )
we have been using the pace dry sump setups on the zx12s and the quality is superb, think the tad lmp is also on this system, but is quite costly
another option
alternative dry sump system
a customer sent me a link to a place that do a dry sump system for zx12 busa and blackbird he priced up the busa version and it was £600 plus vat
which is pretty reasonable, although i have no experiance of this setup it may be worth a look as its accusump money
dont forget though there will be 2 -3 hundred quid in aeroquip pipes fittings, oil cooler etc
best regards
marc
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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carnut
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| posted on 4/1/06 at 08:33 PM |
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I'd advise that you use a dry sump and keep the blackbird motor as its a good engine.
I got all the stuff for my pace dry sump set up for about £800. WRT the pipework you could always use hydraulic fittings which you could get made up
at an agricultural engineers for not a lot.
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Jon Ison
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| posted on 4/1/06 at 08:53 PM |
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Marc, tell you mate to get the mods done I described above, I'm surprised he hasn't as its grass track racers that put me onto it, only
prob is i cant as the engine as you are probably aware as to be standard for the 750mc RGB series.
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stevebubs
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| posted on 4/1/06 at 09:06 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by INDY BIRD
yes will deffinately want to track the car thats what they are made for.
dry sump i cannot locate a supplier for blackbirds and was advised accusump the best alternative to this.
but donot want the first outing to be a new engine.
At least one of the people Chris mentioned above is still around on the Yahoo BEC list - post there and I'm sure you'll get a wealth of
advice based on their experience.
S
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 4/1/06 at 09:31 PM |
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Hellfire - Apologies for needlessly raising your suspicions, thinking about it his car/setup isnt a good example at all as he never actually saw any
prof of surge, but mentioning ZX12s bought his car to mind.
To be truely accurate and if I remember correctly Nigel only did one or maybe two trackdays in his car with the wet sump and having seen logging
evidence from a couple of other BEC owners with various seemingly bulletproof engines (R1 and blade etc - not ZX12) that showed a small amount of oil
pressure reduction in certain circumstances even on these semingly bulletproof engines, he was concerned and maybe slightly paranoid that being an
expensive unproven engine at that time (3 years ago) that he may be getting it too, and possibly on a larger more destructive scale. He didnt have any
real proof either way and when dropping an end cap there was no signs on the bearings, but after seeking advice (I dont know who from - could have
been a dry sump manufacturer for all I know!) he decided he didnt want to risk it and fitted the dry sump.
As you say he did later regret this as Pace who supplied it caused him no end of problems, their parts almost caused a potentially engine destroying
failure due to poor manufacturing / design, and probably indirectly drove him to selliing the whole car in the end as he'd invested a lot of
time and money in getting it right and it was forever in bits.
In Nigel's defence Im sure he didnt mislead you though, if he was trying to do that I dont think he would have told you about him converting to
dry sump at all. The risk of oil surge is the obvious reason to fit one so thats the first thing that would put off any potential buyer of a modified
wet sump IMHO. Anyway, its an off-the-shelf part that could have been bought (from Mistral?) and they'd not give any guarantees but you'd
assume they must have put some R&D into it and that it did its job to a reasonable level.
Perhaps a fairer example would be the RGB guys who I believe have tried wet sump ZX12s but ended up dry sumping, although I dont know much info on
those setups and they may have dry sumped from the off?
cheers
Chris
[Edited on 4/1/06 by ChrisGamlin]
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Hellfire
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| posted on 5/1/06 at 12:43 PM |
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No apology needed Chris. It's just one of those things that your mind is constantly wrestling with - Dry sump or no dry sump. To date, I
haven't heard of any ZX12 Engines letting go on track WITH a baffled/wet sump, although I am aware of a few that have been tracked and
seem to have done OK.
Having said that, I haven't looked too hard for ZX12's which have let go.
There seems to be concrete evidence that a Blackbird could do with either an accusump or a dry sump but similar info seems to be pretty scarce on
ZX12's. Thats probably because most people with ZX12's have dry sumped them. Of course, it makes sense to fit a dry sump to improve your
chances of protecting your engine but does it really need one?
I guess only time will tell........................
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INDY BIRD
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| posted on 5/1/06 at 10:06 PM |
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What is this site yahoo BEC is this the web address and is it a site for good information on these type of questions can you give me the exact web
address would be very gratefull.
Cheers
still none the wiser after all these comments.
Message for JON who does this type of engine work on blackbirds and how much are we talking £££££.
Thanks for the suggetions
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