hobbsy
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| posted on 30/8/09 at 06:50 PM |
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R1 Generator removal - HELP needed
Anyone got any tips on getting the generator (magneto) off on a 2003 5PW R1.
I've done a couple before with mixed success on engines I've broken for parts.
I'm currently doing it with the engine in situ (but undone the mounts to get better access).
I'm using a M16x1.5 bolt as the puller as thats all the Yamaha one is:
[IMG]http://a248.e.akamai.net/f/248/37952/1h/image.shopping.yahoo.co.jp/i/j/msdirect_90890-01080[/IMG]
In the past I've had some success with my 24V impact wrench but this one is proving to be a pain in the arse.
Any tips?
I've not got access to oxyacetylene and the last time when I decided more torque was the answer I stripped the thread on the magneto (used a
breaker bar with a scaffold pole and a rubber oil filter strap also witha scaffold pole).
So a lot more torque isn't the answer.
I've also got an air rattle gun but that doesn't seem to work better than my cheapish 24v one (looks v similar to Machine mart one but was
off ebay).
I've read that you can give the head of the puller bolt a tap with a hammer to shock it off the taper but I'm reluctant to do this as
i'm effectively whacking the nose of the crank.
May also post to see if someone's got a better electric impact driver in the Northampton area as a bit more rattle might do it.
 
Rescued attachment magneto_sml.jpg
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hobbsy
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| posted on 30/8/09 at 06:52 PM |
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Just to add this isn't a scrap engine its my main engine in my car and I need to get this sorted (need to replace stator windings as it
isn't charging) ASAP 
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imp paul
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| posted on 30/8/09 at 07:10 PM |
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hit it with a hide hammer and try pulling it at the same time just take your time don't rasp at it all good things come to he who waits 
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yorkshire-engines
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| posted on 30/8/09 at 07:33 PM |
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Hi you need to clout it with a large hammer then get the gun on it again
and turn the bolt a bit more then clout it again and gun it again keep on till it comes off its the only way it will come off believe me iv
done loads and you wont damage the crank
cheers malc
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adithorp
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| posted on 30/8/09 at 07:41 PM |
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Not done one of these but it's a common way to shift a tapper on a shaft. Sharp tap won't damage the crank but shoud shock it off. Do the
bolt up as tight as you dare then tap the end of the bolt. Shouldn't need a big hit.
Doubt a hide hammer will create enough shock.
Are you going to be done for next weekend?
adrian
"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire
http://jpsc.org.uk/forum/
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imp paul
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| posted on 30/8/09 at 07:46 PM |
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trust malc he is the boy 
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hobbsy
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| posted on 30/8/09 at 07:49 PM |
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paul / malc / adi,
With the hammer tap are you suggesting hitting the puller bolt square on its head? I.e. in the same plane as the crank - this is the direction in
which it needs the shock and at first you think you're hitting it harder on but its Newtons equal and opposite forces and all that and the bolt
is pulling it - just need to break the grip of the taper.
My dad said a rubber / hide hammer wouldn't generate enough of a shock and to hit do as I described above. I'm just worried that
I'm clouting the crank and that might be a bad thing.
adi - I am planning to get it all sorted for next weeked but I also have a long list of other jobs to do after this. Some of them I have to do and
others I can leave as they are only nice to have / tidying up. I was planning to drive down to Cornwall first on Mon/Tues to see a mate (who's
also doing the trackday) in it for a few days then drive straight up to the BnB on Friday afternoon.
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adithorp
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| posted on 30/8/09 at 08:29 PM |
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Exactly. I had 12 tons of presure on a bearing last week and it wouldn't budge. Gave it a tap with an 8oz hammer and away it went.
"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire
http://jpsc.org.uk/forum/
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hobbsy
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| posted on 31/8/09 at 03:33 PM |
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Argh.
Just spent about the last 5hours trying to get this off.
Tried whacking with a hammer then getting my 24v rattle gun on it - the bolt wouldn't rotate any more after being whacked (not that it was
rotating before as it was already as tight as it would allow).
So I tried reverting to a 16" breaker bar and a rubber oil filter strap (Sealey one about 1" wide). Managed to get a fraction of a turn
on, then whack it some more and another fraction of a turn. Probably about 1/2 a turn more than my impact gun would manage.
Then put some box section on the handle of the strap (used to keep stop the engine from turning), managed a tiny bit more of a turn then I broke the
(admittedly plastic) handle of the strap tool (I know its not designed for this).
I was also alternating it with the odd hammer whack and also fully charged batteries on my 24v rattle gun.
So now I had no way of holding it and my rattle gun isn't turning it any more and whacking it does work as stress relief but doesn't seem
to be shocking it off.
Options:
1) beg / borrow / buy the proper locking tool from my (not very) local Yamaha dealer and proceed with the 16" breaker bar
2) beg / borrow / buy a better quality 24v rattle gun as its not the best one ever and see if that shifts it (it has worked before alone on a
different engine but not this time!).
My current one looks like its made in the same factory as the Machine Mart Clarke one here:
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/products/products/217680/clarke_cir24.html
but was a bit cheaper.
I'm thinking of getting the Sealey one here:
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/products/products/217692/sealey_cp2400.html
Claimed 325ft/lb's and I can get it for about £100.
There is a group review of a few of them here:
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/products/products/217677/impact_wrench_test.html
3) Get the engine fully out (would either require a engine crane or the help of a mate - thinking two big bits of wood and some straps and lift it
out) and take it to Andy Bates or similar to get it off. He has the hot spanner which I am lacking (oxyacetylene). This is still a PITA though as
he's a fair old drive away.
4) Go down the pub and hope it some how magically springs off by itself.
Any other sensible ideas welcome.
[Edited on 31/8/09 by hobbsy]
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hobbsy
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| posted on 31/8/09 at 03:38 PM |
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Malc - what rattle gun are you using on it?
Air powered one? If so what make and how big is your compressor?
(mine is a v-twin type sealey 3hp, 50litre and 10mm ID hose, got a couple of rattle guns a Mac tools and a cheapy, never been that impressed with
either of them though)
Or an electric one - again make / model please?
To be honest I can't give it a massive whack with the hammer as I don't have enough room to give it a big swing - is this the problem?
I've still managed to mash the head of the bolt a bit through hitting it, I'm using a weighty hammer just only getting about a 6inch swing
in.
[Edited on 31/8/09 by hobbsy]
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BenB
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| posted on 31/8/09 at 04:02 PM |
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The best thing is to wack it whilst applying moderate torque. If you're using a ring spanner then you can obviously put a drift through the ring
and give it a wallop.
The idea is that in the small period of time that it's not coil bound the torque will spin it.. Hence knock-through screwdrivers etc.
Knocking it and then re-applying the torque won't do much.....
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hobbsy
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| posted on 31/8/09 at 04:13 PM |
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As it stands I'd need 3 hands to do that as I need 1 hand to apply torque and 1 to stop it from turning (but I've broken my strap tool now
anyway!).
I understand what you're saying about things being coil bound but the main problem is the magneto being stuck on the taper of the crank - so the
shock it to try and release that more so than getting more turns on the "puller" bolt.
I've stripped a magneto before as its M16 but only a 1.5mm pitch thread and only about 10 threads deep.
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BenB
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| posted on 31/8/09 at 04:32 PM |
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Q. What do you call someone who can apply loads of torque to a nut and hit it at the same time?
A. A clever dick
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adithorp
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| posted on 31/8/09 at 07:19 PM |
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A six inch swing is probably not going to be enough.
Did you grease the bolt? Both the thread and the end where it'll press on the crank.
"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire
http://jpsc.org.uk/forum/
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hobbsy
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| posted on 31/8/09 at 07:52 PM |
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It might be more than that but I can't get a proper swing without taking it completely out the car and I'm going to struggle doing that on
my own.
I still think a more powerful rattle gun would do it.
I gave it a bit of lube (more like oil than grease) but I'll take it back out and give it some grease.
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BenB
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| posted on 31/8/09 at 09:33 PM |
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Don't forget that a proper penetrating oil is a thing of wonder. WD40 is not a penetrating oil....
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Coose
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| posted on 31/8/09 at 09:45 PM |
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You're twatting the rotor on the side and not on the bolt, aren't you? If not you'll never crack it off the taper....
Spin 'er off Well...
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hobbsy
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| posted on 31/8/09 at 10:14 PM |
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Yes I've tried PlusGas (I know WD40 is nothing like PlusGas!). To be honest though its difficult to get it in there but I squirted as much
around as I could.
Also you do want to hit it on the head of the bolt to shock it I think - read the previous posts.
Even though it seems like you're hitting it further on you're breaking the grip on the taper and there is a bit of equal and opposite on
the go as well I guess (Newtons 3rd)
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adithorp
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| posted on 1/9/09 at 09:01 AM |
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Try hitting it on the rotor; Might get a better swing. The shock wave is what breaks the tapers grip.
adrian
"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire
http://jpsc.org.uk/forum/
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hobbsy
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| posted on 1/9/09 at 09:33 AM |
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Only problem with hitting the rotor is that I don't want to damage it and more importantly if I miss and hit the casing that half shrouds it
I'm fully in trouble.
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hobbsy
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| posted on 28/9/09 at 07:32 PM |
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Finally got it off last night - I haven't been working on it continuously!
The proper Yamaha tool has a domed/tapered end which may have helped. When using a plain bolt it was starting to "push back" the thread
along the bolt a bit as the area you're actually pushing on the nose of the crank is very thin (perhaps 1mm thick).
Also lots of whacking, loctite freeze and release and aerosol PlusGas (couldn't get the drippy tin stuff in effectively) may have helped.
As did the mains impact wrench (which geoffxt kindly lend me) also helped as it could maintain its rattle for ages unlike my battery one which starts
to loose it after a while. Although it was starting to rattle itself (and me) to bits!
And the problem stator was finally accessible (see photo).
As least there is no doubt that its this that was causing the non-charging situation!
 
Rescued attachment toasted_stator.jpg
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Brommers
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| posted on 29/9/09 at 01:00 PM |
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Did you work out what the root problem was? I run a 2006 R1 in my Fury, and I'd rather not have to do all that work!
Cheers
Dan
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hobbsy
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| posted on 29/9/09 at 02:22 PM |
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Its quite an easy job *IF* the magneto comes off easily.
I don't know the root cause other than it probably happened on a very hot day when the load on the generator must've been high as the fan
was on a lot. Also it was while I was doing a charity rally/treasure hunt type thing in France so it was stop/start a lot of the time.
I also know of another recent failure (within weeks) on the same year of engine (5PW).
Apparently the stator/magneto is bigger on the 5PW than the earlier 4VX and yours might be bigger again if its a later engine?
Anyone else had this happen?
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adithorp
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| posted on 29/9/09 at 04:19 PM |
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Good to hear you got it off.
adrian
"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire
http://jpsc.org.uk/forum/
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