ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 26/5/05 at 09:25 AM |
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Hi Alex
Just a thought - do you have a reverse box on the car? If so then Id think this is likely the cause if I am understanding you correctly that the rear
of the prop attached to the rear axle turns fine, but the front of the prop at the engine end doesnt? Could it even be something as simple as that
jumping into a neutral state? If not then some have chain or gear drives inside which may have broken.
If you dont have a reverse box then the prop itself must have failed although its almost impossible for it to do that in the serene way as if the prop
fails it usually tries its hardest to bash the tunnel to pieces and flails around whacking everything in sight.
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Alez
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| posted on 26/5/05 at 09:55 AM |
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Thank you Chris.
I don't have any reverse whatsoever, everything there should be really simple. Also it's not any neutral state, I had all sorts of noises
prior to stopping the engine and checking there is no link now. It's very strange how quietly it failed initially. I really want to have a look
asap!
> if the prop fails it usually tries its hardest to bash the tunnel to pieces and flails around whacking everything in sight
Sounds like good fun 
Cheers,
Alex
[Edited on 26/5/05 by Alez]
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 26/5/05 at 10:01 AM |
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I meant that the reverse box might have disengaged itself into a neutral state, but as you dont have one then thats not the problem!
Was I right in what I said above - when pushing the car along the road the rear end of the prop attached to the axle rotates, the front end attached
to the engine doesnt?
If so then the good news is that the prop isnt BEC specific, it probably is custom made but any prop manufaturer in Spain should be able to make you
up a new one to the same spec.
Chris
[Edited on 26/5/05 by ChrisGamlin]
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Alez
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| posted on 26/5/05 at 11:01 AM |
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> I meant that the reverse box might have disengaged itself into a neutral state but as you dont have one then thats not the problem!
 I always favoured pushing the car, when I was looking for a car to buy, I considered no reverse as a plus because of reliability.. Later on I found
you can't approve a reverse-less car in Spain, but that's a different story
> Was I right in what I said above - when pushing the car along the road the rear end of the prop attached to the axle rotates, the front end
attached to the engine doesnt?
Yes you are right. From previous posts you can see that this is a new situation as previously, rotation would reach the engine!
> If so then the good news is that the prop isnt BEC specific, it probably is custom made but any prop manufaturer in Spain should be able to make
you up a new one to the same spec.
Good news at last!! 
Thanks!
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 26/5/05 at 11:12 AM |
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Take some pictures (preferably with the tunnel panels taken off) then we can confirm thats the problem, but if one end of the prop turns and the other
doesnt, then there's nothing else in between to fail!
Chris
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tks
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| posted on 26/5/05 at 11:54 AM |
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mhhh
to me this sounds deffenitly to a prop joint failure
i'm thinking about the sliding joint of the propshaft..??
Ok Alez, no problemo.. if you need something to from here like Jamon, Chorizo etc..i live in the pionier city of it (Guijuelo)
soow any way regards
and lifting it up will make the problem clear in seconds..
TKS
The above comments are always meant to be from the above persons perspective.
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Alez
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| posted on 30/5/05 at 08:36 AM |
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Propshatf joint failure
Hi All,
I finally got underneath the car, I found some disturbing stuff:
The two sections of the propshaft were disengaged from one another. The one going to the diff was therefore loose and hit the chassis as I rolled the
car. The big one (going to the engine) was still fastened to the chassis.
Pic: http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/upload/pshaftjoint4.jpg
How it managed to disengage by itself remains a mistery to me. Maybe the two sections were never as close to each other as they should have been and I
made the situation worse last summer when I adjusted the rear suspension to get one inch extra ground clearance?
I decided to take the whole thing out of the car for inspection. I couldn't take the section going to the diff out because I can't slacken
those bolts. I've sprayed lots of that magic oil (what's the name in English?) on them for now. I took out the other bit. While doing it,
I noticed:
-A couple of the bolts-nuts which tie the propshaft to the flange were loose. The bit which ties this flange to the engine output pinion (kind of in
between cog?) is tied to the engine via a bolt with a big washer (like a plate). Please excuse my English, I'm trying my best and I hope you can
get to understand me This bolt was inside the unit, but it wasn't in its place, it was loose inside. I'll be taking a pic to ask you if
this bolt is fine, it looks a bit short to me, like a bolt which would get loose easily, especially since it doesn't have any locking means
(locking washer, whatever).
-The joint is badly damaged.
Pic: http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/upload/pshaftjoint.jpg
The pic shows two ring shaped regions of damage. They explain why, when I first lose my transmission, I would still get rotation at the engine side
when rolling the car in neutral but only if there was no opposing force from the engine. Still, how or why would the two propshaft sections disengage?
Maybe a bad position of the propshaft caused both initial failure (damaged joint causing loss of transmission) and final failure (disengaged
sections)?? Also I can't understand the inner ring shaped region of damage, whay this narrow ring shape when the other bit is quite wide??
-This shaft has been made (modified?) by Bailey Morris Limited.
Pic: http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/upload/pshaftjoint3.jpg
I don't know if all propshafts are like that, this one has this big diametre joint which bolts onto an adapter with 2 big bolts, this adapter
then bolts onto the chassis with 4 big bolts. This big joint ties to the section of the shaft which connects to the engine. It is a special ball type
joint which holds the propshaft while allowing it both to rotate and to stay in the required angle. Is this a standard Escort mk2 propshaft, but
shortened as explained in the Ron Champion's book? (The book hasn't any pictures of it ) Or is it a purpose made botch? I assume the
adapter which bolts to both joint and chassis is made by Stuart Taylor? The book doesn't give any details about such adapter, at least in the
propshaft section?
I'm totally lost about my next step, apart from taking the other bit out to see if it has been damaged as well. The Ron Champion's book
says the shaft has to be manufactured very carefully so it has the exact required length. I don't know if I can order a new propshaft from a UK
manufacturer and hope the length will be exactly as required. I don't know what happened, so I don't know how to avoid it happening again.
I don't know wether I should contact Bailey Morris Limited to get a new propshaft or I should try Stuart Taylor (they assembled the car in their
factory, this car was sold as turn key) or I should take the whole car to a specialist in Spain (if I can find one) for an expert to asess the cause
of the failure and put the new bits together properly.
Help please?? This issue is absolutelly above my mechanics skills and I don't know what to do
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Peteff
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| posted on 30/5/05 at 10:08 AM |
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The splines don't look too bad Alex. The stuff on them looks like aluminium filings. Was there anything else in there with it. The bolt that
holds the two sections together has gone adrift somewhere. I'd clean it up and put it back together to get it mobile and order a new prop if
you're not confident in it. Get some threadlock for the bolts when you reassemble it. Check the slider in the front section is working as it
looks like it may have been pulling on the rear and loosened the bolt
[Edited on 30/5/05 by Peteff]
 
Rescued attachment pshaftjoint.jpg
yours, Pete
I went into the RSPCA office the other day. It was so small you could hardly swing a cat in there.
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Alez
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| posted on 30/5/05 at 10:27 AM |
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Many thanks, Peter. I didn't know there should be a bolt there, but actually I retrieved a loose bolt which I found, I'm sure it's
that one.
I have located a transmission specialist here in Madrid. I may put it together just as you say and then drive it to these guys for a proper job.
Cheers,
Alex
[Edited on 30/5/05 by Alez]
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 30/5/05 at 10:32 AM |
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Hi Alex
Which end was this, the end going to the axle, or the end going to the engine? If its the rear end, does your prop have a sliding joint in it? This
would be an unpainted narrower diameter metal shaft in the rear section of the prop, looking like a hydraulic ram. It would need one of these with a
live axle because as the live axle moves, the prop needs to extend / shorten slightly. If this isnt present or has seized up, when the axle moves it
will be pulling on the centre bearing which could have caused the failure you have.
Just edited to add that having re-read your post properly, this is the rear half of the prop, so what Ive said is relevent!
[Edited on 30/5/05 by ChrisGamlin]
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 30/5/05 at 10:35 AM |
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By the way, don't bother with the book on this one as the prop requirements for a X Flow and the prop requirements for a bike engine are
completely different. From the parts I can see of your prop it looks exactly like a bike engine's prop should do apart from I can't see if
it has the aforementioned sliding joint in the rear disengaged section.
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Alez
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| posted on 30/5/05 at 12:20 PM |
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Hi Chris,
Thanks for your post. All the pics in my post are of the section that connects to the engine apart from the first picture, which I took before taking
anything out of the car and shows the two sections where they join. This is the only pic of the other section which I've not been able to get
out of the car yet. In this very picture, you can see my finger as I'm holding the section which connects to the diff. That's all
that's there.
When I saw it, I thought that the way this works is it lengthens or shortens by allowing the bit I was holding when I took the pic to travel back and
forth, with the long pinion inside (the one showing two rings of damage).
The only other joint is the big, ring shaped one seen in the pics, which fastens the front section of the propshaft to the chassis where the joint is.
This joint allows it to rotate and to move, changing it's angle (but not move back and forth).
I can't see any other joints apart from the connecting plates (flanges?) to engine and diff, although I don't know what a hydraulic ram.
Anyway, I'm sure nothing else was there!
So, the big diametre propshaft bit which is tied to the chassis by means of this big joint, is that normally put at the front of the car like in mine?
Or where you asking because sometimes it's done the other way around?
Also, something important I need to know, as I see this propshaft has nothing to do with what's described in the book: what is it?? Is it a
purpose made popshaft? I need to know this in case I need to provide the especialist with any original (donor) parts for modification bt them. The
reason why they may not know about the donor part needed is that neither Cortinas nor early Escorts were sold in Spain.
BTW these guys can modify a propshaft to my specification or manufacture one for me, I've just phoned them to ask and basically they say they
need to see how it looks like (they don't know what a Seven is).
So, can you tell me, whatever I have there, is it a custom propshaft, purpose made for BECs by Bailey Morris Limited? Or is it a car propshaft which
was modified in any way to suit the Stuart Taylor chassis?
Thank you!
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Peteff
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| posted on 30/5/05 at 03:22 PM |
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The Bailey Morris prop will have been made specially for your car Alex. It uses standard parts for their construction though so they should be able to
match it easily enough.
yours, Pete
I went into the RSPCA office the other day. It was so small you could hardly swing a cat in there.
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Alez
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| posted on 31/5/05 at 06:40 AM |
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Excellent Peter, thank you.
Yesterday I took a couple more pics to check if there should have been any in-between bits.. like the sliding joint mentioned by Chris. I went there
to try to remove the other bit and failed again, it's stuck there forever..
Anyway, in the pics you can see the chassis attachment points of the big adaptor which holds the propshaft, they are on the lower left corner of the
pics. The diff would be to the upper right corner, at the end of that propshaft section.
I found that the section of the shaft still in the car matches (mates) the section already out of the car, so nothing is missing.
Is that a strange arrangement? I don't see the need for anything else as there's room for sliding in the current arrangement..
Cheers,
Alex
Pics:
[Edited on 31/5/05 by Alez]
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 31/5/05 at 08:09 AM |
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Alex, could you take some pictures of the other end of this section, where it meets the rear axle, or ideally a picture of the entire length if you
can get it in shot, that way we can determine if it has a sliding joint in it
It shouldnt be sliding on this splined bit you've taken a picture of, or at least thats certainly not how other Bailey Morris props Ive seen
work.
Chris
[Edited on 31/5/05 by ChrisGamlin]
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Alez
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| posted on 31/5/05 at 09:00 AM |
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Pics
I have some more pics including rear end but not any of the middle section as the car is quite close to the ground.
This first one is of the middle section but quite close to the rear axle. The joint in the previous pics would be to the left of this picture and the
diff would be to the right:
 
These two are of the rear end section, showing the adapter plate still bolted to the diff because I just can't undo those bolts. On the left of
this pic you can see part of what's in the other pic:
I don't think there's anything else to the left of the first picture, so that's pretty much everything that's there in that
section 
If the propshaft is not supposed to vary it's length by means of the joint which failed, I don't understand what's the purpose of this
joint. I mean, if length is to remain the same and the angles of the two sections must be the same for them to come together, I can't see why it
couldn't have been one longer piece
Cheers,
Alex
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 31/5/05 at 09:14 AM |
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The top picture is the end of your sliding joint, if you pull the prop towards the front of the car this section should extend out about 10cm and you
should see bare shiny steel just to the left of this small collar (if looking at it from the same angle as the picture).
Make sure this hasnt seized up, you should be able to pull it in and out quite easily by hand.
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Alez
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| posted on 31/5/05 at 09:20 AM |
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Understood, thank you!! I will try tonight, and may be able to take some more pics of this middle section.
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Alez
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| posted on 1/6/05 at 06:52 AM |
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Seized up
Bingo. Yesterday I tried to pull the rear section of the propshaft towards the engine by hand and it doesn't extend at all, it doesn't move.
I took this pic (shown nothing new really):
Looks like I won't be DRIVING but TOWING the car for repair..
Cheers,
Alex
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 1/6/05 at 08:48 AM |
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Hopefully you've found the culprit!
Chris
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 1/6/05 at 08:56 AM |
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Alex, one thing - it will be easier / safer to trailer it, if towing behind another car you'll need to undo the 4 bolts that hold the prop to
the diff and disconnected it otherwise when you tow it along, that bit of the prop will be flailing around and bashing your tunnel to bits, probably
taking out fuel and brake lines etc in the process!
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Alez
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| posted on 1/6/05 at 12:23 PM |
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Oh yes, sorry, I meant trailer it, it's my dodgy English again. Thank you for trying to avoid an (aditional) disaster Chris.
BTW I'm still unsure about how to proceed, the car is down the -3 floor in a big garage (remember I live in the big city), and trailers
can't get in there (because of width), so it's going to be an interesting Indiana Jones like adventure once I figure out a low-cost plan
Cheers,
Alex
quote:
Originally posted by ChrisGamlin
Alex, one thing - it will be easier / safer to trailer it, if towing behind another car you'll need to undo the 4 bolts that hold the prop to
the diff and disconnected it otherwise when you tow it along, that bit of the prop will be flailing around and bashing your tunnel to bits, probably
taking out fuel and brake lines etc in the process!
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tks
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| posted on 1/6/05 at 12:30 PM |
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jajajajaja
what about....
an horse??
y un cacho cordon gordo??
pero claro ahora buscar un caballo en madrid
Well you could try it?
TKs
nah pulling/pushing is the way to go..
for easy pulling / pushing take of the
'guarda barros?' the plastic thing wo cover the wheels...
then you can easy roll the car....
The above comments are always meant to be from the above persons perspective.
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 1/6/05 at 12:50 PM |
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Hi Alex
No it wasnt dodgy English as "towing" can mean either on a trailer or on a rope, I just wanted to make sure
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Alez
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| posted on 1/6/05 at 01:11 PM |
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Aaah, so "towing" can mean any of the two things!! Hurray!!
Hmm, not sure about the horse option. When I had oil leaks I was kindly asked to clean them. I don't want to clean lots of what horses naturally
"leak"!!
Cheers,
Alex
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