Hi all,

Just need some help here with regards to ground clearance for the sump.

I am fitting a 2005 R1 engine into a Tiger B6 (a first). The highest point of the engine is the Throttle Position sensor which basically sits on the side of the throttle body. In order to get the engine low enough so that it will fit under the bonnet (only 21.5" from the bottom of the chassis rail to the bonnet) i have around 60mm / 2 1/4" of ground clearance to the bottom of the sump.

Question is - is this enough??

[Edited on 12/7/07 by Paul TigerB6]

I think 4 inches is the least for a road going car, at 2 and a quarter you would need to run a sump guard which will further reduce ground clearance, the sump is only thin cast alloy if it hits anything it will shatter it

Cheers
David

david is quite right

bugger - i wish Dave was wrong. So, whats the options to gain the ground clearance?? Is there a way of moving the throttle position sensor at all?? Shallow sump?? Graft a bulge to the bonnet prior to it being painted??

Argh!! I thought the new R1's were small!! How did Tiger get a ZX12R under there - even with a modified sump!!!

You havent said how high you're running the car, maybe a more relevent measurement would be how far the sump hangs below the base of the chassis rails?

quote:

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Originally posted by ChrisGamlin
You havent said how high you're running the car, maybe a more relevent measurement would be how far the sump hangs below the base of the chassis rails?

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Having looked at the manual it is actually the Sub-throttle servo motor assembly that is sitting very high on the 05 R1 engine. Has this not caused an issue with anyone else??

Edit.
Having looked through the history there is mention (by Chris Mason) of turning the throttle bodies around which will drop the sub-throttle servo motor assembly out of the way. Looks to me like the perfect answer to my problem but has anyone done this or seen any links to websites detailing it.

http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=65585

Cheers
Paul
PS dont you just love this forum!!!

[Edited on 13/7/07 by Paul TigerB6]

[Edited on 13/7/07 by Paul TigerB6]

[Edited on 13/7/07 by Paul TigerB6]

[Edited on 13/7/07 by Paul TigerB6]

If you can't do the throttle body flip as youve mentioned, I suspect the only solution is going to be a hole / scoop on the bonnet to give you enough room as 2.5" below the chassis rail is too much IMHO.

cheers

Chris

Well having had a look at it i will gain a little bit but not much due to the fuel rail as can be seen in the picture. This raises the question of fitting a sausage air filter too!!! Selling the engine and fitting something different is seeming an attractive option at present!!
Rescued attachment throttle bodies front.jpg

Can you not remove the secondary butterflies? They're only there to stop cack-handed born-again bikers from highsiding....

Selling the engine only changes the problem but doesn't solve it. If you're willing to sell the engine, find out the dimensions of the replacement so that the very same problem doesn't happen.

quote:

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Originally posted by Coose
Can you not remove the secondary butterflies? They're only there to stop cack-handed born-again bikers from highsiding....

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Like you say you will need an airfilter anyway and that will a bit higher again, ideally you don't want the sump below the chassis rails, I have seen a completly flat sump using a dry sump setup but that will no doubt be an expensive complicated solution.

Buying another modern engine won't sort your problem as all of the modern engines have downdraught carbs/fuel injection pointing straight up in the air and the R1 has one of the most compact flat sumps available.

The easiest thing is to move it up and sort an opening or bulge to cover it, plenty of the bike engined cars have done this and they look great

Cheers
David

quote:

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Originally posted by kb58
Selling the engine only changes the problem but doesn't solve it. If you're willing to sell the engine, find out the dimensions of the replacement so that the very same problem doesn't happen.

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Rescued attachment tiger-b6-mk2.jpg

More searching on the 05 R1 secondary butterflies resulted in the following quote from Cossey. Do you have any more info on this and am i going to need to go to Megasquirt then??

Thinking about it a PC3 is somewhere around the £250 mark isnt it?? I have a US loom / ECU that i could sell on that does away with the need for coded key so all in all Megasquirt might be cost effective for me anyway????


"the newer r1 has secondary butterflys but the engine can go dangerously lean if you remove them because the stock ecu doesnt seem, even with a pc3, to be able to properly sort out fueling. with the upgrades coming out soon the megasquirt will soon be able to run the engine fine (atm its missing sequential injection and coil on plug ignition drivers) but that looks like a good idea because then you can go to a closed loop setup at lower throttle and open loop/mapped for higher throttle and it will make it alot easier to pass emissions without neutering the engine"

[Edited on 13/7/07 by Paul TigerB6]

I've got an '06 R1 and it looks like I'll have similar problems (when I get some bodywork). I wanted to have the sump flush with the chassis but I'm considering dropping it a little if that will get me under the bonnet but if it's a lot too high I'll use a bulge.

I don't think turning the throttle bodies will work as you won't loose much height, apart from it being seqential injection so would be injecting the wrong cylinders (unless you re-do the wiring). I've just made up an air box and remote filter.

Adrian

I did wonder about putting some curved tubes between the head and throttles so that they were horizontal. It would mean moving the thormostat housing. Don't know how this would affect the fueling though as it would extend the inlet tract. and still don't think it'd gain a lot height wise.

Adrian

The more i look into it the more i feel that maybe the MegaSquirt may be the answer to this. Removing the secondary butterflies saves about 2.5 inches off the height. Cost of MS system can be offset on the saving of the PC3 - but obviously will need extra rolling road time.

Thoughts gents???

How about this, standard injection although this is a hayabusa using a curved manifold

More details are on this site,
http://www.dpcars.net/

cutting your injection into lots of bits doesn't sound like an easy option to me, then the megasquirt plus you'll need a different trigger wheel, which is much bigger and has to be mounted outside the engine, it all gets messy quickly

Cheers
David

[Edited on 13/7/07 by Minicooper]

[Edited on 13/7/07 by Minicooper]
Rescued attachment dp1 curved manifold.jpg

Thats a horrible solution IMHO, the injectors are designed to fire atomised fuel straight down the throats of the inlet tract, with that lot in between its going to upset the fuel / air mix quite a bit. You might actually end up with a bit more mid-range torque at a certain rpm but I bet you'd lose out at the top end.

It works well Chris, injectors can fire fuel in any direction, that's why it was invented

Cheers
David

[Edited on 13/7/07 by Minicooper]

Injectors can fire in any direction yep, but assuming they've just used the standard throttle bodies bolted to these extensions, that direction is fixed to suit their original application of firing it straight down the throats of the inlet tract so is unlikely to be ideal in this situation.

Its not just that though, in any engine a long inlet tract (even if straight) has an effect on how fast the fuel/air mix enters the cylinders, hence why some (mainly car) engines now have variable inlet tract lengths. Long and narrow for low rpm to maximise the speed of the mix into the engine helping lower speed torque, short and wide for high rpm to maximise power. From what I understand (and its a bit hazy I must admit), long and wide might not actually be very good at low speeds either because the air speeds through the manifold at low rpm may not be fast enough to keep the fuel/air mixed together and you can end up with the fuel droplet essentially going too slow to make it al the way to the engine so they end up on the manifold walls if you're not careful.

He didn't make the manifold himself it was bought of a company

http://www.super7cars.com/index.html

They use it on all of there hayabusa cars, so you would have to assume it works. You wouldn't need to go the size and curvature of there manifold say something like half and have the the throttle bodies horizontal or even a slight angle down back to the head.

I myself wouldn't be to keen on that manifold, mainly because the throttle bodies are upside down, and any unused fuel perhaps may leak back into the air filter

Cheers
David

Yeh Im sure it "works", I guess what Im saying is that its not an optimimal or best practice way of setting up throttle bodies on a high performance engine, and it will reduce the power a bit.

I think i am just going to have to bite the bullet and position the engine so that i gain the sump clearance and investigate further removing the secondary butterflies as that looks the ideal solution - IF we can sort the fueling!! Otherwise i guess its going to have to be a bonnet bulge over the servo motor.

Has anyone managed to fit a sausage filter directly to the TB's?? Looks like with the servo motor one side and the fuel rail the other that these would get in the way unless the back plate is spaced out.

Cheers anyway guys.
Paul