I'm getting severely hacked off with communications from MK, my kit is ordered and due in two weeks. Ive had discussions with Baz about comms and
actually I agreed that 24 hrs to get back to me via email would be OK! Subsequently emailed and am still waiting!! I am due to pay this week and am
SERIOUSLY concerned about my investment. I have read all the notes on here about being a small company and how the cost of a receptionist would
increase kit costs.... well consider this, how many lost orders have they had and also selling 250 kits a year at an average of £3k + follow up orders
how much would a £15k per yr receptionist really cost! I've had enough and if I have no response tomorrow will cancel my order. Does anyone have
any experience of the customer service from GBS?
Sorry for the rant but if Baz was stood at the supermarket counter, wallet in hand and was ignored how would he react!!?
Always use the phone with these small companies as they're way to busy to sit on a computer.
GBS service is good, always get an answer on the phone and parts get here fast.
Whilst I understand where you are coming from, I think you need to take a step back and a deep breath or two.
The email thing is a common problem with small businesses who do good work but don't have huge amounts of time to sit answering emails. I can say
from experience that you will have much better results on the telephone.
The guys at MK do a pretty good kit and and a search on here will reveal that there are much much worse companies to deal with.....
I'm sure they will come through for you 
they never answer the phone and the mail box is always full!
May be worth considering a GTS!
They are fairly poor from a customer service point of view. In their defense they seem fairly honest unlike some suppliers, and have a decent track
record of getting stuff out to customers.
From my limited experience of them Mac1 seem a bit better on the service front. Don't know about GBS.
If you go ahead with MK I would phone the day before collecting your kit and get them to confirm that everything is ready and any extra bits have been
done like powder coating etc. before you turn up with a van.
Stu
I even met them at Autosport show at the NEC last weekend and they couldnt have been more disinterested in talking to me
quote:
Originally posted by Hammy360
I even met them at Autosport show at the NEC last weekend and they couldnt have been more disinterested in talking to me
quote:
Originally posted by Alfa145
Always use the phone with these small companies as they're way to busy to sit on a computer.
GBS service is good, always get an answer on the phone and parts get here fast.
May be worth considering a GTS!
Please dont use GTS, as you will still be waiting for parts you have ordered, when petrol is £100 a gallon
Popcorn ?
quote:
Originally posted by slingshot2000
quote:
Originally posted by Hammy360
I even met them at Autosport show at the NEC last weekend and they couldnt have been more disinterested in talking to me
If that was the case I, for one, would definetly be taking my cash elsewhere!
Regards
Jon
Hammy
I take it you have actually ordered and paid deposit for the kit?
Have a little search, about MK problems/customer service. I have had problems myself, and been very unhappy. But I understand people have had problems with other Kit Manufacturers.
Yeah, but have just emld them to cancel and get my deposit back, Im absolutely GUTTED!
Will you get your deposit back if you have cancelled your order ?
I took my money to GBS after MK showed no interest in me at a show last year. As a potetial customer they could not be bothered to even speak with me so I walked along to GBS and they got my order. GBS customer service is excellent and I am 100% that I made the right decision.....
So you start a thread sbout how MK don't respond quickly enough (or at all) to emails, then post that you'veemailed them to cancel your
order!
TBH sounds much the same as I had when I was telephoning them about my manifold and all the shows I've seen MK at they're always too busy
with themselves to talk
[Edited on 18/1/11 by mistergrumpy]
There are some good guys out there. I've been using Saturn for my Haynes bits. Superb customer service weather it by email or phone. Maybe off topic but what are the advantages of an indy over an Haynes?
not sure about the quality of the GBS so cant comment , I can vouch for the MK being a good bit of kit both as a track and road vehicle and in all the guys being a good set of lads. I wouldn't be too hasty jumping and would give them another call. You wouldn't want to compromise and possibly end up with a lesser product from another manafacturer.
I'm sure there was an article in a kitcar magazine about them recently but I can't find it now??
But you are quite right to take you're money where you feel. Hope you get your deposit back. If they cannot be bothered contacting you while they
are waiting for you to complete the payment on your order then what will it be like when they have your money.
I know they have a big following of guys on here and a lot of them have the chance to visit the workshop on saturdays etc in their kits etc. But if
you are too far away to do that then it must be frustrating trying to sort things out if they do not get back to you.
The GBS kit seems very good value for money IMHO and as with ANY kit the finished standard is down to the individual builder
If you decided on the MK in the first instance look at YOUR decisions based on that. Yep fully agree the could do better with customer contact
/service!
Ok then, as most are well aware they don't really do email as such.
They will answer the phone but YOU need to keep at em.
As you said they have given you a delivery date couple of weeks away and generally will meet that date.
I have had several kits from them and dates were met. It's with you to ensure you make sure that they have all the bits ready.
Best advice give BAZ or Phil a call 2morro and discuss.
Good luck if you decide to go ahead and cancel though.
cheers D
Well I have to say that as a small business owner myself, I find that 90% of the problems come from 10% of the customers - the problem with the 10% is
not that they have have problems any worse than the 90% - they just have unrealistic expectations and the customer isn't always right.
My business has won awards for good customer service but faced with a customer with as much patience as you seem to have, I would be very glad if you
went to one of my competitors.
I hope that what ever company you choose makes you happy
quote:
Originally posted by Hammy360
Yeah, but have just emld them to cancel and get my deposit back, Im absolutely GUTTED!
Not all kit car makers have bad comms. As I don't live in the UK, email communication was of utmost importance to me.
I can tell you MNR was great at answering emails. And were very friendly in Stoneleigh. Luego was OK with emails and very friendly in person.
I can complain about MK and Mac1 when I was selecting the company to buy from. If they were bad before they had my money, I can only guess after they
had it.
I can't say anything about GBS since they only advertised CECs and I wanted a BEC and to buy all parts needed to build, so I excluded them from
the shortlist.
Aries Motorsports is the company I selected. Excelent comms by email and very friendly. As Steve
wasn't going to be on Stoneleigh, he opened up shop the prior Saturday evening so that I could visit it on my arrival day. And comms keep
excelent 6 months after I bought it, with emails with build questions being replied on the following day.
In the end, it's your money, give it to whom you think is worth of it!
P.S. - Don't count on receiving your deposit back... After all, you agreed to a contract and now you're breaking it. The deposit is the
company's protection against canceled orders because they have costs in preparing the order.
Best regards,
HappyFather
Try a U2U to "Danny Keenan" on here. He works at MK and has always been keen to sort me out, I find it's always best to try to find a
single point of contact, and stick with it. (TBH I'm normally the one who fails to ring him back!)
I also run my own business, it can be a juggling act!
Scott
quote:
Originally posted by mistergrumpy
TBH sounds much the same as I had when I was telephoning them about my manifold and all the shows I've seen MK at they're always too busy with themselves to talk
[Edited on 18/1/11 by mistergrumpy]
quote:
Originally posted by mookaloid
Well I have to say that as a small business owner myself, I find that 90% of the problems come from 10% of the customers - the problem with the 10% is not that they have have problems any worse than the 90% - they just have unrealistic expectations and the customer isn't always right.
My business has won awards for good customer service but faced with a customer with as much patience as you seem to have, I would be very glad if you went to one of my competitors.
I hope that what ever company you choose makes you happy
quote:
Originally posted by Davg
If you decided on the MK in the first instance look at YOUR decisions based on that. Yep fully agree the could do better with customer contact /service!
Ok then, as most are well aware they don't really do email as such.
They will answer the phone but YOU need to keep at em.
As you said they have given you a delivery date couple of weeks away and generally will meet that date.
I have had several kits from them and dates were met. It's with you to ensure you make sure that they have all the bits ready.
cheers D
Thanks for your comments, case closed now as I have cancelled. Cheers lads
quote:
Originally posted by Hammy360
quote:
Originally posted by mookaloid
Well I have to say that as a small business owner myself, I find that 90% of the problems come from 10% of the customers - the problem with the 10% is not that they have have problems any worse than the 90% - they just have unrealistic expectations and the customer isn't always right.
My business has won awards for good customer service but faced with a customer with as much patience as you seem to have, I would be very glad if you went to one of my competitors.
I hope that what ever company you choose makes you happy
Thats a bit unfair mate, I have been very patient and addressed the problems which still continue. I too run a business and my expectations are not unrealistic. Sorry if you think I'm impatient but Im just worried about contact during my build
just to deffend MK
we now very quick at getting our emails answered.
i no this because i do them my self!
we spoke to john at the autosports show and told him all his kit is in order,fibreglass is in stock and the chassis is ready to go to the powder
coaters.
we got an email from him on monday asking about his credit card payment which he was due to pay at the end of this week.
and which company we was going to use,as we are just getting our card machine up and running and we are using our friend's next door to our
factory.
we found the details late last night and was goind to email him this morning,to find out he has cancelled his order.so we tried
to call him several times today and left messages with his workers to give us a call.but we got nothing back from him.
well thats our side to the story.
cheers danny
they were slow on emails way back when i got my kit, but if you phone them youll get the communication you want.
theyre a good lot, theres no need to worry about your investment! just think, theyre spending time making your kit rather than sitting on their
computers...
If you two do get together, I would bet the farm (if I had one) that once the kit was delivered and the project started, all the worries would
disappear. It's the waiting that get people (sometimes called 'customers' or 'bread and butter'
riled, me included.
On a side note: I've been waiting for 4 months to get some wiring done by somebody, and although he's communicative, I am going round the
bend with the wait. I have nothing to do!
quote:
Originally posted by danny keenan
just to deffend MK
we now very quick at getting our emails answered.
i no this because i do them my self!
we spoke to john at the autosports show and told him all his kit is in order,fibreglass is in stock and the chassis is ready to go to the powder coaters.
we got an email from him on monday asking about his credit card payment which he was due to pay at the end of this week.
and which company we was going to use,as we are just getting our card machine up and running and we are using our friend's next door to our factory.
we found the details late last night and was goind to email him this morning,to find out he has cancelled his order.so we tried
to call him several times today and left messages with his workers to give us a call.but we got nothing back from him.
well thats our side to the story.
cheers danny
Have to say Danny has been very good at communicating with me by email when I was making my enquiries, but when I was at Autosport on the Friday there
was no one on the MK stand for most of the time I was there, and when there was people on the stand I was ignored when looking round the car.
I spent a lot of time looking at the various kits on show and have decided based on kit quality and the service I have received so far to go with
another manufacturer.
Just my experience.
FastDan.
Your right in what your saying, but I think what Davg is saying is, use a bit of common sense. If you were to travel a long way, in a van you may have
hired for the day, to pick up a product from a company who have a bit of communication history, why would you not ring up just to be sure. In a
perfect world you wouldnt have to, but perfect is hard to live up to.
I owned an MK, and although the customer service wasnt perfect, the product was good and I certainly didnt have major issues. I live local which
obviously makes a difference, and popping in for advice/bits/to take photo's etc was never an issue. In fact as from a point of view of being
stuck for a part or just plain stuck, they were great.
You will obviously make your own decisions, but good luck with your build, whatever it is.
Hammy,
You do of course have the right to spend your money where you like and if you
are unhappy then i dont blame you for doing so.
I have bought two indy kits from MK and while i didnt email,i always telephoned
I always got a fast response and was helped with anything i asked.
I found Baz/Danny a great help throughout my dealings with them.
just my two penarth worth,
Andy
Just my two cents worth....
MK customer service is appauling......
How they continue to do business in the current climate is beyond me...
I ordered my kit in september last now it was supposed to be a complete kit including engine....so in my opinion i should not have to purchase a
single thing to complete the car .....it all should be there ....well it should be as i was paying them 10,000... for it... guess again the kit was
delievered to Dublin by Baz himself..cheers at least ididnt have to travel to get it Great.. but then again if you are coming over to get 10,000 cash
its an easy journey........i am nearly finished the car and i have spent another £2000 getting bits that i was missing and considered sub standard to
fit to the car.....after two months of phone calls and lists being emailed of parts missing no sign of anything be shipped including my engine(that
was paid for another mistake by me) i now was starting to worry........again more emails of lists being sent to to make sure they know what was
missing.... i got serious pissed off ....so i rang and said i was coming over to pick my parts up my self....at a cost to me of £400.....and told them
to make sure they have everything ready...i also had a change of mind on thje wheels and asked if i could swap my brand new team dynamics 15"
wheels for 13" wheels the revolutions like on danny race car they said no problem but i would need bigger arches......i said ok i will swap them
when we got there....
Sent another email to make sure they had everything ...they said yes come on over...
when i got there some of the parts were there well at least the engine was.....
the rear arches were the wrong color...
the anti roll bars werent even finished....and when i tryed to fitted them they just didnt fit so i had to remake them myself...
they took my new wheels and pawned me off with a set of 13" wheel that had been already on danny race car and were all scored on the inside from
the brake caliper.....and the slick tyres that were on it were f**k as in no wear left in them at all....the list i gave them of switches for the car
they didnt read as the ones they gave were totally different...
and the big one.... i loaded the engine less the clocks i might add... into my jeep headed home and found out at home that the engine number on the
engine was removed....this was a close call....as if i was stopped by customs at holyhead port which happens 60% of the time customs would have asked
me were i got it and for a reciept ...which i didnt have and one look at the engine would tell you it was stolen...they would have seized it and i
would have lost 3500....
Two months have now passed since then and i just got my last important bits form mk
As i didnt even bother ringing about the other bits that i could source locally...stuff like silicon hosing ... relays... engine mounting bolts , sump
plug, bearings for the rear hubs that were knackered... when i got them.... braded brake line that were to short ...rose joints for the anti roll bars
....exhaust mounting brakets....alloy rails to finish the inside of the car...
the list goes on and on....theres just to much to post here
After all that ....i am nearly finished my car ...just to find out that i cannot use it for its intended purpose.....ie: race hillclimb and
sprint....as the so called race roll cage on the indy does not meet fia standards ....so when i produce it to a scutineer fo log booking ...if he is
doing his job properly it cant be logbooked....
HOW PISSED OFF AM I
At the moment i am that pissed of with the way MK treated me i feel like i have been ripped off .....i have to date built 6 cars for racing and road
...and have had one on the front page of a big UK magazine.... and love cars ....
and racing i spend most of my time in the garage....
but now after this mess i dont even feel like going out to finish the car... and once its finished i think i will put it up for sale...
For one reason and one reason only
is that if anything goes wrong with the car i know phoneing MK would be a waste of time.....
and if they treat there customers like this.... how do they treat the cars they are building...
I have ran my own business for 7 years and know if you dont look after your customers you wont have any...
and customer service ....is part and parcel of a suscessful Business ...
...
I was leaving this rant until i got all my important parts for MK as if i posted any of this before i would probabaly never see them !! even tough
they have they have been paid for
MY advise to anyone thinking of buying an MK is simple....DONT. get something else....
and i know from talking on here I am not the only one that have had these problems...
[Edited on 20/1/11 by noc231073]
I tnink from experiance that MK are a bunch of guys with welders and a car originaly designed by Martin Keenan,not alot of inovation has come forward
in the last 8 years and they are really milking a car that Martin designed for all its worth.
However the MK Indy i would say is probably the second best 7 style car out there,the frustrating thing i found with MK is that they havnt reinvested
there money in area's to grow the business.
You can be the best welder / fabricator in the world but if you get a bad press and don't move forward with design and technology then your dead
in the water.
I have said it for years they need a front of house person,somebody who has a way with people and enthusiastic about the product.He/she can deal with
the customers by phone/email or in person and also man the stand at the exhibitions etc.
As previously said the right person would pay for themselves twice over and leave the fabricators to be fabricators.
I have been in sales for over 25 years and worked around mechanical/electrical engineers and one thing i have found is very few will make
sales/customer relations people.
In the current climate you don't want anybody with money in there pocket to spend upset with you,i bet there is a person local to MK who maybe
retired/out of work at present who would work on a good comission for new business on parts cars etc.think how much revenue they could generate if
they had a data based of all there customers who this person could ring and sell upgrades, retrofits even discount parts and service work,its a no
brainer really but i don't think the guy's at MK have had experiance of this type of thing and wouldnt know where to start.
The nearest they got to this was a guy called Charlie i think it was a few years back but i think they had a fall out.
quote:
Originally posted by sonic
However the MK Indy i would say is probably the second best 7 style car out there...
If you can buy a Westy or a Caterinvan for MK money good on ya! maybe i should have put pound for pound if we are being picky.
For every person like your self who wasnt impressed there are a few hundred out there who are and have been over the years.
Hi
MK second best.!!!! With no caster, camber control that goes positive in roll, chassis flex that defies belief, chassis jigging that is non existent
with non adjustable rear setup to dial out the chassis inaccuracies / thrust alignment.
And to top it off when you actually try to seek clarification to the claim of the rollcage being a full FIA compliant item you are threatened with
violence and physically pushed off their stand at the Auto sport show.
Question is why do they even bother.
Cheers Matt
quote:
Originally posted by procomp
Chassis flex that defies belief...
Blimey, people saying negative things about MK and the post has not been deleted. Now thats a surprise.
its weird, i've had no dealings with any kit manufacturer, well, 1, well known for service, but lets not go there but some people post looking
for something, and a whole load of posts say "contact Martin at MK, fantastic bloke, can fabricate anything, he'll do it for you",
"2nd" "third for MK" blah blah blah,
and then this?! its the first i've heard of any problems with MK, very surprised!
again, as i said, no dealings with them myself, just going by whats on here some weeks
Martin at MK Engineering is different and seperate to MK SportsCars.
www.mkengineering.co.uk
He is a fantastic fabricator, I know from personal expierence and I don't think he has any or much input into the running of MK Sportscars
anymore apart from the obvious family ties. They are 2 seperate entities.
For the MK Story:
http://www.mkengineering.co.uk/storybehindmk.htm
[Edited on 27/1/11 by Alfa145]
ah, right. gets confusing doesn't? who runs mk cars then
quote:
Originally posted by procomp
Hi
MK second best.!!!! With no caster, camber control that goes positive in roll, chassis flex that defies belief, chassis jigging that is non existent with non adjustable rear setup to dial out the chassis inaccuracies / thrust alignment.
And to top it off when you actually try to seek clarification to the claim of the rollcage being a full FIA compliant item you are threatened with violence and physically pushed off their stand at the Auto sport show.
Question is why do they even bother.
Cheers Matt
This is my biggest hate about internet forums.
people are happy to give their views on any business but 99% of the time those views are bad.
so when you do a search what happens, the only thing that appears is negative views.
the initial post was a complaint about MK's customer service and replying to emails, if you were struggling to get in touch via email why wouldnt
you just pick up the phone?
Then when other people churp in with their comments you become more and more agitated with the situation and cancel. the phone call could have told
you that their ISP had cut them off, their local exchange was down or a family death (it is a family business after all). I'm not saying that
was the case but you didnt know and were happy to just post it on a forum and start having a go at them until you wound yourself up enough to cancel
after 34 mins (I didnt work this out, someone quoted earlier)
most of the time there are 2 sides to every story and sometimes people need to take a step back before posting any old poo on a forum because lets
be honest your whole mentality here has been "they haven't answered my emails, lets bleep them up on a public forum". its a sad state
of affairs in my opinion. you started a ball rolling and got caught up in it yourself.
with regards to the guy and his £10k order, again we dont know the ins and outs of what was agreed with MK. If you problems are that bad why have you
not taken legal action? this is a sure fire way of generally finding out who is wrong or right? did you get the full order in writing, I know I did
with my order.
I watched that Mary Porter thing with CSL sofas last night, they had an internet forum that was just a hate campaign against them, Mary porter got in
touch and only 1 person came forward to show they had a bad sofa? what happend to all the others this site which was buzzing with activity and
complaints but only 1 person would come on TV and complain. This to me shows people are happy to post any old poo on the internet because of their
anonymity. but when asked to explain themselves in person usually cant.
quote:
Originally posted by procomp
chassis jigging that is non existent
Cheers Matt
Hi
Chassis is obviously jigged but when you can visually see the brackets across the chassis are not to within a 10mm tolerance you have to ask if jigs
are used for the suspension. Hence the reason most of the indys have wild varying Castor side to side. And that is a very well known fault.
Cheers Matt
quote:
the brackets across the chassis are not to within a 10mm tolerance
Hi
It is well known for Indy builders to have major problems fitting wishbones into the brackets. But what was meant was the relationship between the
position of the left and right hand sides. Ie what dictates castor and general squareness of the suspension geometry.
Agreed this is going of the OP's intended topic. But it all feeds back to the blatant lies and customer service. I mean there's more than a
few cases where people have spent hard earned money on a kit and parts and you end up with a product that cant be used for the purpose they sold it to
be used for in some cases despite there assurances that you can.
Cheers Matt
hi
everybody knows mat has got some sort of problem with MK?
We never say a bad word against anyone
over the past few years we have made plenty of improvements to our cars.
from me and chris maries racing the cars over the past 3 years we have made a race winning car.
as for the roll cage we don't need to show anything to mat.
if any body on here wants proof of how strong our cages are,have a look at our pictures on our website.
which involves chris maries in a big roll at over 120mph and doing 8 rolls.
chris has raced for over 40 years in many cars and is still a race instructer,he was shocked at how well the car held up
to a big crash like that.
enven all the scruteners was impressed with the cars stengh and design with such a big impact.
or for anybody that wants a look at the chassis that was invoved in the crash they are more welcone to come to our factory.
cheers danny
Hi Danny
I have stuck to factual facts. Re the roll cage, Can you please explain to those who have paid for your so called FIA approved cage and then been left
high and dry with no option but to cut it off and have another compliant one fitted why Mk have not been able to give them any paperwork to go with
the cage and left them well out off pocket.
Does the MK cage comply with current MSA or FIA regulations.
Cheers Matt
Is this the right place for this sort of thing? I'm always a bit wary about N&S theads, you mostlly only hear from people who've got an axe to grind and you can't really get a balanced view
quote:
Originally posted by mookaloid
Whilst I understand where you are coming from, I think you need to take a step back and a deep breath or two.
The email thing is a common problem with small businesses who do good work but don't have huge amounts of time to sit answering emails. I can say from experience that you will have much better results on the telephone.
The guys at MK do a pretty good kit and and a search on here will reveal that there are much much worse companies to deal with.....
I'm sure they will come through for you
Well that was interesting. 
Not seen a thread like this for ages.
Neglecting all the argy-bargy, I think Matt's last comment/question to Danny was a fair one.
If you make a claim that what you are selling meets certain criteria, then you must be able to back it up with the relevant documentation. Surely the
Tades Description Act covers exactly this situation. IMHO
I cant see why another trader feels the need to become engaged in this surely if someone (a customer) has a problem which cant be sorted amicably then
go through the legal channels.
For any people who may have an axe to grind I suggest Machine mart as they have an offer on bench grinders.
quote:
It is well known for Indy builders to have major problems fitting wishbones into the brackets. But what was meant was the relationship between the position of the left and right hand sides. Ie what dictates castor and general squareness of the suspension geometry.
well i got back from mk head quarters a few hours ago after danny fitting a new front end on my car and i must say great guy great service and great coffee! was very quick and cracked on while letting me walk round the workshop having a look at the cars! happy chappy!
quote:
Originally posted by needforspeed
well i got back from mk head quarters a few hours ago after danny fitting a new front end on my car and i must say great guy great service and great coffee! was very quick and cracked on while letting me walk round the workshop having a look at the cars! happy chappy!
I've had 100's of u2u's and put up with some criticism but if you look at the subject and tone of my original post i asked questions that concerned me. Some of the u2u's have been horrifying regarding other peoples experiences so thankfully this is now not a problem for me....
Two concerns here from me.
Engine code stamp removed! Surely thats is completely unacceptable in any build wether road going or just track.
Secondly - the cage, this is a big one for me as I really want to get one fitted, but still Mk cannot confirm its compliance. Surely it meets some
criteria as otherwise they wouldnt be racing in it?
As for me My Indy is fab. Did some work on the tracking but did not have to go as far as shimming etc. Matt at procomp very kindly balanced my
coilovers for me also (but thats Protech and not MK)
Only other thing I have bought was an exhaust can which was exactly as described and the only delay was the pants cheque payment.
otherwise thumbs up and a great LOCOST product. Lets just get this cage issue sorted
Hi
I guess we will find out when Danny turns up At Mallory for an all comers race in the 750Mc who use scrutineers who actually do there job.
Cheers Matt
quote:
Originally posted by procomp
Hi
I guess we will find out when Danny turns up At Mallory for an all comers race in the 750Mc who use scrutineers who actually do there job.
Cheers Matt
, after the race was over, someone pointed out the MK cage to the scrutineers, in a very unsporting failed attempt to get him
disqualified
quote:
Originally posted by PAUL FISHER
quote:
Originally posted by procomp
Hi
I guess we will find out when Danny turns up At Mallory for an all comers race in the 750Mc who use scrutineers who actually do there job.
Cheers Matt
Danny did not have a problem at the last 750mc allcomers race he ran in and WON, on the 2nd of October, you may recall the race, the one in which he WON, and Ian Kempson came 3rd, also in an Indy, both beating your procomp LA gold cars.
You may also recall
I thought it was just me who though MK were very poor at customer services. I chum and I contacted them to enquire about a kit and said that we would
call and arranged an appointment. We travelled over two hours to get there and when we arrived, we were told that "he's with a
customer".
We hung around for over an hour but despite asking around, no-one was interested in talking to us apart from two guys who were also wanting to look at
a demonstrator. Eventually we, and the other guys, got sick of waiting and left. My mates cheque book stayed in his pocket that day!
quote:
Originally posted by PAUL FISHER
quote:
Originally posted by procomp
Hi
I guess we will find out when Danny turns up At Mallory for an all comers race in the 750Mc who use scrutineers who actually do there job.
Cheers Matt
Danny did not have a problem at the last 750mc allcomers race he ran in and WON, on the 2nd of October, you may recall the race, the one in which he WON, and Ian Kempson came 3rd, also in an Indy, both beating your procomp LA gold cars.
You may also recall
result here; http://www.750mc.co.uk/images/uploaded/10_Oulton_Park_2nd_October_Allcomers.pdf
video of race here; 3rd video from the bottom, October 02/10/10 program 1 part 2
http://www.750mc.co.uk/index.php
[Edited on 19/05/04 by PAUL FISHER]
Hi
I think you will find that the MSA scruitener was looking at Danny's car with amazement as to how it had been through scruitenering with the cage
and solid toneau cover when the car was in the collecting area. And i think you will find that Ian kempsons car has had the rollcage changed so that
it complies with MSA/FIA.
As for Danny and Ians cars. Well try comparing apples with apples Ie car that are all on slicks Ians car is in a more powerfull class as he has over
200BHP compared to the La's that where running a mere 160Bhp in the zetec clas rather than the open class. And i think that if you do compare
apples with apples youll find that the MK's are well and trulley left standing by both Westfields and an Aries Locost in there regular
championship.
At least get the facts straight.
Ill ask again MK supply the paper work needed for the cages you have sold. ?
Cheers Matt
For the posted who just deleted their comments on FIA cages:
the documents you were talking about are here:
http://www.fia.com/sport/Regulations/sportcoderegs.html
Under J 2011 - article 253
no registration needed.
[Edited on 7/2/11 by loggyboy]
Not quite sure of the point you're trying to make with the FIA link. I've had a *quick* read through and only found reference to front hoops
that have 1 bend in them (that is supposed to follow the shape of the front window). From what i've read previously this isn't what MK do.
If you want to have two bends then it needs to be tested - which I think is Mats point.
Although it has answered a question i had about positioning the rear diagonal hoop on my car that wasn't 100% clear in the MSA specs - so
i'm very grateful to you & sorry if i've miss read the FIA link / point you're trying to make.
My 2p is as follows
Matt is always correcting other manufacturer’s errors whether it be roll cages, suspension geometry, dampers etc.
He is only saying it how it is, he doesn't like to see people being ripped off and when he challenges these manufactures, they come out with some
B/S about how fantastic their products are (while hiding behind their keyboards) as can be seen in 2 recent threads and god knows how many others
I have experienced being fed a load of B/S and I got badly stung, Matt & his dad couldn't have done more to help me out
My advice is buy a Westfield and forget the rest, mine cost £5000 S/H finished, a lot less (by the time you have added it all up) than a so called
budget manufacturer who can't be bothered to answer the phone as mentioned above...... or buy mine for £5000
I personally prefer the non B/S approach to a safety critical device
Just picked up on this thread - a bit damaging and embarrassing if you ask me. Reminds me of the Avon shock thread on Pistonheads - which to this day comes up on Google before the Avon website. What a shower of sh1te - two well known suppliers to the industry having a pi$$ing contest. Well done!
quote:
Originally posted by loggyboy
For the posted who just deleted their comments on FIA cages:
the documents you were talking about are here:
http://www.fia.com/sport/Regulations/sportcoderegs.html
Under J 2011 - article 253
no registration needed.
[Edited on 7/2/11 by loggyboy]
All i will say on the matter of the roll cage is when chris maries had a big crash at oulton park theres was hardley a scratch on the roll cage
As you can see it's a very strong roll cage FIA approved or not
Chris maries would not be racing a mk indy r if it was not up to spec his brother used to race a westfield in the same series but is now useing a mk
indy r zetec
quote:
Originally posted by hicost blade
My 2p is as follows
Matt is always correcting other manufacturer’s errors whether it be roll cages, suspension geometry, dampers etc.
He is only saying it how it is, he doesn't like to see people being ripped off and when he challenges these manufactures, they come out with some B/S about how fantastic their products are (while hiding behind their keyboards) as can be seen in 2 recent threads and god knows how many others
I have experienced being fed a load of B/S and I got badly stung, Matt & his dad couldn't have done more to help me out
My advice is buy a Westfield and forget the rest, mine cost £5000 S/H finished, a lot less (by the time you have added it all up) than a so called budget manufacturer who can't be bothered to answer the phone as mentioned above...... or buy mine for £5000
I personally prefer the non B/S approach to a safety critical device
quote:
Originally posted by procomp
And i think that if you do compare apples with apples youll find that the MK's are well and trulley left standing by both Westfields and an Aries Locost in there regular championship.
At least get the facts straight.
Cheers Matt
Wow that's a fairly graphic set of photo's.
BUT it looks like the roll cage does not make direct contact to the ground from what you can see there. Perhaps it does but if not then it's
acting only as another bracing member IMHO
To me it's fairly clear how to solve this debate.
If the documentation for the cage being FIA or MSA approved exists then it is " approved "
If not and it has been passed scrutineering then " It complies with the FIA/MSA bluebook rules" but only in the eyes of that particular
scrutineer. IMHO.
Both statements are true but in effect worlds apart in terms of statement. One of them will get you into any race regardless of who is the scrutineer.
The other MAY cause problems if a different scrutineer reads the rule book differently.
According to those facts the MK indy is in Class B, the LA Gold (Procomp) is in Class C. The LA Gold only competed in 5 races, the MK completed in
everyone (14 races).
Not apples with apples (although i'm now craving a cider with all this talk of apples!)
The winner of class C was a car that looks like a fury from a quick web search - full smooth bodywork type car (along with 2nd and 3rd place).
Now can someone explain how the points work, as its left me confused.
PS that looks like one hell of a roll. Glad to hear the driver is ok and eveything held together. May be an idea for all racers / track dayers to get
wrist restraints watching those arms flail around.
[Edited on 7/2/11 by MikeR]
quote:
Originally posted by interestedparty
quote:
Originally posted by hicost blade
I personally prefer the non B/S approach to a safety critical device
What I think is that it might be that Matt's stuff is better than MK's, but as he wants people to compare apples to apples, and as it is well known that higher quality costs more money, it would only be fair for him to say whether his stuff is more expensive than MK's. If it is, then what do you expect? If it isn't, then that would seem to be something worth mentioning, LOUDLY.
After all, there would be no point in Mercedes saying their stuff is better than Fiat's if it is also more expensive.
I am pleased we have got into this debate, as after a bit of research its only highlighting to everyone how poor your own cars have performing,
compared to your competitors, getting your ass kicked in both the 750MC ALLCOMERS and the KITCAR class by the competition, you know what they say,
people in glass houses should not throw stones and all that, and a bit more advise for you, I say your doing yourself more harm than good with your
arrogant attitude on this forum, concentrate on your own business, spend a bit more time getting your own house in order, and less time slating all
your competitors.
[Edited on 19/05/04 by PAUL FISHER]
quote:
Originally posted by MikeR
According to those facts the MK indy is in Class B, the LA Gold (Procomp) is in Class C. The LA Gold only competed in 5 races, the MK completed in everyone (14 races).
Not apples with apples (although i'm now craving a cider with all this talk of apples!)
The winner of class C was a car that looks like a fury from a quick web search - full smooth bodywork type car (along with 2nd and 3rd place).
Now can someone explain how the points work, as its left me confused.
PS that looks like one hell of a roll. Glad to hear the driver is ok and eveything held together. May be an idea for all racers / track dayers to get wrist restraints watching those arms flail around.
[Edited on 7/2/11 by MikeR]
What i do not understand is why registerd traders with a lot to loose get involved in tittle tattle arguments about my grass is greener than
yours....................
I'M A BIT UPSET ABOUT THIS THRED.
One of the jobs i was going to get sorted this year was getting the indy set up corner weighted ect, and mat a pro comp was to be honest going to get
my cash after i had a read of a few threds last year he seemed like the guy who knows what hes doing.
but now i've had a read of this post he could be the best guy in the world for the job, but your not getting my cash now mate, i dont know what
you charge for the job but i assume £300+, and well look at it this way, your childishness in this post has just lost you 150 beers, but i assume your
customer service is so good you can afford to turn away new customers
i'm self employed, and i have 90% happy customers from this web site and 10% unhappy ones, i cant win them all. things go wrong from time to
time, but if anyone from the 10% ever come back to me i'll still try my best to help them out.
where as i think your attitude to bussiness stinks
I see the whole cage thing like this. Mk are selling one that they claim is compliant with the regs but afaik can't prove it. Procomp are selling a cage that IS compliant with the regs and have spent alot of time and money getting it tested. MK's cage is a fair bit cheaper than procomp's. People are buying MK's cage only to find out it may be no good at all and then have to have it cut off and a compliant one welded in place. If i was Procomp i would be pissed for the customer that their money had been wasted and getting fed up with putting other company's work right. If this forum didn't exist and people like Procomp didn't share their views how would people know about these things until after they had paid out for a very expensive bit of scrap metal.
quote:
Originally posted by Davegtst
If this forum didn't exist and people like Procomp didn't share their views how would people know about these things until after they had paid out for a very expensive bit of scrap metal.
quote:
Originally posted by hicost blade
quote:
Originally posted by interestedparty
quote:
Originally posted by hicost blade
I personally prefer the non B/S approach to a safety critical device
What I think is that it might be that Matt's stuff is better than MK's, but as he wants people to compare apples to apples, and as it is well known that higher quality costs more money, it would only be fair for him to say whether his stuff is more expensive than MK's. If it is, then what do you expect? If it isn't, then that would seem to be something worth mentioning, LOUDLY.
After all, there would be no point in Mercedes saying their stuff is better than Fiat's if it is also more expensive.
As I said, I personally don't think a statement like that really stands when it comes to safety critical devices such as roll cages
For the sake of +/-£200 difference I would prefer one that has been tested properly
quote:
Originally posted by Davegtst
People are buying MK's cage only to find out it may be no good at all and then have to have it cut off and a compliant one welded in place. If i was Procomp i would be pissed for the customer that their money had been wasted and getting fed up with putting other company's work right. If this forum didn't exist and people like Procomp didn't share their views how would people know about these things until after they had paid out for a very expensive bit of scrap metal.
I think there is a simple answer to this.
Can someone contact the MSA and ask their senior technical / scrutineer / mashall to comment on the MK full cage.
If we can get a definitive answer if the cage is ok for circuit racing, then this 'conversation' goes away and either MK are vindicated or
Matt is vindicated. It will also stop any worry about turning up for a race and being not allowed to go on circuit or racing with a cage which some
people think may not be strong enough.
Seems worthwhile to me as until a definitive answer is given, this will just go on and on.
quote:
Originally posted by MikeR
I think there is a simple answer to this.
Can someone contact the MSA and ask their senior technical / scrutineer / mashall to comment on the MK full cage.
If we can get a definitive answer if the cage is ok for circuit racing, then this 'conversation' goes away and either MK are vindicated or Matt is vindicated. It will also stop any worry about turning up for a race and being not allowed to go on circuit or racing with a cage which some people think may not be strong enough.
Seems worthwhile to me as until a definitive answer is given, this will just go on and on.
quote:
Originally posted by Triton
Matt would have had to submit drawings and a full cage to be tested, this costs a fortune in his own time as well as the FIA fees so I can understand him being miffed if cages that may or may not have been tested are being let through by scrutineers.
marc n's post on this thread may fill in a few of the blanks for you.
What OD and wall thickness is the tube on MK cages?
Other than the odd bends at the dash, the cage shouldn't get past a scrutineer, even if it was 1 3/4" and 2.5mm wall.
It's the bends in the front tube and longitudinal top tubes which should fail it at scrutineering. The MSA and FIA make it quite clear as to how
much a tube is allowed to be bent. Where's the roof diagonal? Now compulsory for both FIA and MSA. I'd suspect that if that cage actually
went upside down and hit the ground, the end result would look somewhat different, as would the driver.
I can understand Matt's issue with these cages being allowed to race, when he has gone to the trouble and expense of having a custom cage
approved.
The thing is, I, or anyone else, can make and fit a cage to a car and race it and get past the scrutineers, as long as it looks like the diagrams in
the Blue Book, and is made from 1 3/4" x2.5mm tube or bigger.
Matt needed special testing and approval of his design because it uses smaller and lighter tubes, hence the need for it to be checked.
My son is currently doing FEA work for a company going through the process of having two lightweight cages approved. Just for the info of those who
want to know, the cost of the FIA test at MIRA is £700/cage, and the MSA costs are near to £300 each.
You've got to sell a number of cages to get that back! Even spreading the costs at £100/cage, that's near to twenty cages to recover just
that cost. Then there's the tooling and design costs.
That guy in the pics of the roll is a very lucky man indeed. He has his entire upper torso and arms outside the car in one shot. He needs to tighten
his harness a lot more by the look of things.
Cheers,
Nev.
quote:
Originally posted by Neville Jones
It's the bends in the front tube and longitudinal top tubes which should fail it at scrutineering. The MSA and FIA make it quite clear as to how much a tube is allowed to be bent. Where's the roof diagonal?
quote:
Originally posted by Neville Jones
My son is currently doing FEA work for a company going through the process of having two lightweight cages approved. Just for the info of those who want to know, the cost of the FIA test at MIRA is £700/cage, and the MSA costs are near to £300 each.
You've got to sell a number of cages to get that back! Even spreading the costs at £100/cage, that's near to twenty cages to recover just that cost. Then there's the tooling and design costs.
quote:
Originally posted by MikeCapon
marc n's post on this thread may fill in a few of the blanks for you.
Simple reply from MK is all that is required here.
Many of you now obviously see it as an MK versus procomp thread which has lets face it turned into a childish my car can beat your car thread.
It's certainly NOT what the original post was all about at all ( which was communication )
So come on MK communicate with us .
Is the cage approved? with documentation.
Or is it Compliant?
quote:
Originally posted by omega 24 v6
So come on MK communicate with us .
Is the cage approved? with documentation.
Or is it Compliant?
Wot he said.^^^^^^^
If they are bothered about heir name being dragged through the mud and if their cage is legal now would seem a jolly good time to
reply.............
Edited for typo and to say I meant wot omega said.
[Edited on 8/2/11 by MikeCapon]
This thread's gone waaay off topic.........
AFAIK, MK Sportscars have never claimed that their roll-cage is fully MSA/FIA approved and if thats the case, they have nothing/no-one to answer
to.
If you decide to purchase an MK for competing in motorsport that requires a full MSA/FIA approved roll-cage, then unless it's advertised as being
fully MSA/FIA approved, it is the buyers responsibility to ensure it is fully approved and compliant, otherwise they run the risk of being turned away
or having to modify the vehicle.
The MK was allowed to race in the 750mc which would suggest that the cage passed scrutineering at the event.
It therefore seems to me that the issue is with the scrutineers application of their own rules/guidelines.
Phil
[Edited on 8-2-11 by Hellfire]
quote:
Originally posted by Hellfire
This thread's gone waaay off topic.........
AFAIK, MK Sportscars have never claimed that their roll-cage is fully MSA/FIA approved and if thats the case, they have nothing/no-one to answer to.
For me "full race spec" is just as "racing" as a set of halfords racing pdeals or shiney gear knob. In my head, race spec shows
that its a full cage targeted for those with some form of track use in mind. I wouldnt read too much into it but it would help to comment next to the
description the current status on approval etc.
Would the MK cage be compliant if the front down tubes did not have the lower bend and they mounted to the outside of the cage with no lower bends?
For me it would seem so.
I can understand Matt's views and he does have a real passion for this, lets not knock that. I feel his frustration probably is fueled by MK not
stepping up to the plate on this challenge with clear facts, and that the original topic never once needed for race results and car performance in
ragrds to lap times to be bought into debate.
I for one hope we do not loose Matt on the forum. I am an MK owner, and Matt has been very helpful in dealing with my car with a hat on which says,
"this is what you have car wise, this is what we can do within your budget or prefference". never has he gone onto slate the MK further than
it is needed or said he wouldnt touch one to work on it.
The original subject of this thread is customer service, and there are plenty of current MK owners i suspect checking in on this thread to see what
the deal is regarding the cage and approval from Mk. Again, customer service is disapointing here as they must be more than aware of the subject and I
am sure they can give a clear an honest answer if the a) know the answer, and b) if its perhaps not want we want to hear, are happy still to be
upfront and honest.
quote:
Originally posted by Kriss
For me "full race spec" is just as "racing" as a set of halfords racing pdeals or shiney gear knob. In my head, race spec shows that its a full cage targeted for those with some form of track use in mind. I wouldnt read too much into it but it would help to comment next to the description the current status on approval etc.
quote:
Originally posted by Kriss
I can understand Matt's views and he does have a real passion for this, lets not knock that. I feel his frustration probably is fueled by MK not stepping up to the plate on this challenge with clear facts, and that the original topic never once needed for race results and car performance in ragrds to lap times to be bought into debate.
I for one hope we do not loose Matt on the forum. I am an MK owner, and Matt has been very helpful in dealing with my car with a hat on which says, "this is what you have car wise, this is what we can do within your budget or prefference". never has he gone onto slate the MK further than it is needed or said he wouldnt touch one to work on it.
The original subject of this thread is customer service, and there are plenty of current MK owners i suspect checking in on this thread to see what the deal is regarding the cage and approval from Mk. Again, customer service is disapointing here as they must be more than aware of the subject and I am sure they can give a clear an honest answer if the a) know the answer, and b) if its perhaps not want we want to hear, are happy still to be upfront and honest.
Time for chill pills all round I think.
quote:
Originally posted by interestedparty
.... All he needs to do now is to say whether it is the same price or not.
[Edited on 8/2/11 by interestedparty]
Hi
I am going to add this last post on this thread.
For the record i do not make a FIA cage that is legal to fit to the MK's so references to me trying to gain business or profit from this is
ridiculous.
The reason for my interest in this subject is that i find it very awkward to tell a customer (who has approached me to do some work on his MK and prep
it for racing) that his car dose not meet the basic rollcage regulations required despite the fact that MK have sold him a car for the purpose of
racing and despite the fact that they have told him that they have all the relevant paperwork from the MSA. There is at least one guy in this thread
earlier who is in a similar position. Quite frankly is P's me off no end to see someone led up the garden path with BS for them only to find that
they are going to end up out of pocket. Even there semi supported car of Ian Kempson had to change his roll cage due to the non compliance of roof
bars front legs and front leg mounting design.
Cheers Matt
PS. Dose anyone have a printed copy of the spec sheet for the Indy R where there was direct reference to MSA/FIA IE before the web pages where
altered this week.
[Edited on 8/2/11 by procomp]
quote:
Originally posted by procomp
PS. Dose anyone have a printed copy of the spec sheet for the Indy R where there was direct reference to MSA/FIA IE before the web pages where altered this week.
quote:
Originally posted by Alfa145
quote:
Originally posted by interestedparty
.... All he needs to do now is to say whether it is the same price or not.
[Edited on 8/2/11 by interestedparty]
What has price got to do with it? Its common sence an approved one would cost more than one not approved, due to the cost of approving it....
I can prob make an even cheaper one out of plastic pipe, but thats not going to protect me in a crash is it?
[Edited on 8/2/11 by Alfa145]
quote:
Originally posted by procomp
The reason for my interest in this subject is that i find it very awkward to tell a customer (who has approached me to do some work on his MK and prep it for racing) that his car dose not meet the basic rollcage regulations required despite the fact that MK have sold him a car for the purpose of racing and despite the fact that they have told him that they have all the relevant paperwork from the MSA. There is at least one guy in this thread earlier who is in a similar position. Quite frankly is P's me off no end to see someone led up the garden path with BS for them only to find that they are going to end up out of pocket. Even there semi supported car of Ian Kempson had to change his roll cage due to the non compliance of roof bars front legs and front leg mounting design.
whats MSA/FIA certification got to do with the original post?
this thread's going nowhere.. i think it needs to be closed
BLIMEY!
What a thread, only just seen it!
Anyway, coming to this with an objective view point as I am, two things need to happen here
1 - Lets approach all future post on this thread with a constructive as opposed to a negative position, its really quite a lot of old tittle tattle
and is not conducive to the excellent community spirit of Locostbuilders. Frankly if you want a slagging match, clear off to Pistonheads.
2 - The cage does indeed look very strong BUT please can MK just definitively confirm that its complaint or not?
Come on chaps, lets play nicely from now on!
quote:
Originally posted by hicost blade
This thread has gone way, way off topic.....
Thread now closed ......
Fozzie...........Admin