907
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| posted on 30/7/05 at 04:58 PM |
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Hi Pat.
Glad you read that bit.
I sometimes think we on locostbuilders are guilty of tunnel vision.
We think of only one aspect of a design, and then discuss that
aspect without looking at the big picture.
I remember a few weeks ago 5th Gear crashed a Smart car (amongst others)
into a brick wall at 70 mph (remote controll). They then discussed how the
footwell area didn't collapse, and the shell more or less held its shape.
Right at the end, they then said that the driver would have died anyway,
his brain crushed against the inside of his skull.
On here we'll argue about say, a bracket thickness, 4mm? 5mm? 6mm?,
and forget it's welded to a bit of 1.5.
Let common sence prevail.
ATB Paul G
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Northy
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| posted on 30/7/05 at 04:59 PM |
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Personnaly I'm with Rorty on this one Pat. If there was anywhere I wouldn't be bothered about "adding too much weight" it
would be the harness mounts.
Please don't under engineer them.
Why are "Caged" the experts? Lots of companies make things that are not fit for purpose (not that I'm suggesting Caged do). Ask them
if they've tested their design. I'm no expert but it looks a little weak to me.
Graham
Website under construction. Help greatfully received as I don't really know what I'm doing! 
"If a man says something in the woods and there are no women there, is he still wrong?"
Built 2L 8 Valve Vx Powered Avon
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britishtrident
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| posted on 30/7/05 at 06:27 PM |
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The Westie mount isn't bad remember westfield use solid bar instead of 16g for member "O", The one on the ST chassis is iffy -- so
iffy I wouldn't barge it with a touch pole.
The gusset plate on the fisher chassis is pointless it does sweet FA.
A raised SVA legal belt mounting if it is used in anger will create a direct load and torque on member "O" and as the load point is
positioned at some distance from a node it will result in member "O" being subject to shearing + torsion + bending
On my own car I used 3.5 thick 25x25 RHS for member "O" -- I actually only intended to use 2.5 mm but could get 3.5 more easily., I have
a camel hump mountings like Ned except I have only one hump the full width of the car. The rear bulkhead has additional bracing to take some of the
torsion load off member "O" and I am going to an additional tube and gusset plates similar to Paul 907 (except my welding is nothing like
as pretty)
These mods don't just strengthen the seat belt mounting but also are designed to stiffen the rear spring turrets which are an iffy area of the
book design.
[Edited on 30/7/05 by britishtrident]
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Avoneer
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| posted on 30/7/05 at 07:30 PM |
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So are we saying that the mounts are fine and the only problem would be the twisting force on the top tube?
(which will be greatly reduced once the mounts are cut down after SVA)
Pat...
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However a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
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Avoneer
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| posted on 30/7/05 at 08:02 PM |
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Ok, been thinking (doesn't happen often)...
If I weld in a 19mm bar like 907's idea and then a 4" wide 3mm plate on top of the top bar and this new bar (fully seamed welded) - would
I get away with just welding appropriate nuts on the underneath of this plate?
Pat...
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907
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| posted on 30/7/05 at 09:30 PM |
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Well, lets put it this way Pat.
If that fails SVA then so will mine.
I have just a tiny reservation. I think the SVA chaps prefer a
threaded tube or boss to a nut, (not 100% sure) as a nut is
thinner than the diameter of the thread.
i.e. a 12mm nut is 10mm thick, 10mm nut is 8mm thick etc.
My bosses are 20mm long + 4mm plate = 24mm of thread.
ATB Paul G
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Avoneer
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| posted on 30/7/05 at 09:38 PM |
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Hi Paul,
If I drill through the top of the plate and insert my current 60mm threaded inserts and weld them with 5mm protruding from the top of the plate and
then weld a narrow 3mm strip across the bottom of the two tubes with the insert passing through this, that should make everyone happy shouldn't
it?
Minimum height is still just over 500mm from the seat squab, but I can always unscrew the eye a bit and put some washers under it.
Can I get away with one eye for each harness as both clips will fit on one eye?
Pat...
 
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907
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| posted on 30/7/05 at 09:48 PM |
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Even better.
Not sure on the one eye though.
I think they like the belts to pull in a nice straight line.
Paul G
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britishtrident
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| posted on 30/7/05 at 09:52 PM |
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The mounts are too close to the seat back to use one eye --- it wil tend to make the belts slip off the shoulder.
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Avoneer
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| posted on 30/7/05 at 10:02 PM |
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I tried it before with one eye and preferred it, but if I have to use two, is 3" apart ok?
Is everyone happy with the solution now?
Cheers,
Pat...
"It's been emotional"
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Fozzie
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| posted on 30/7/05 at 10:08 PM |
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Pat,
Your 'new' design looks so much better (yours is brill Paul, lovely welding ), I still have concerns over the height issues (datum), if I
have understood correctly that you are planning to have your eyelets lower.....No, I do not suggest that you have your eyelets high out of the chassis
tube.
For SVA you do need threaded inserts and HT (High Tensile) eyelets or bolts.
Sorry Pat, you cannot get away with one eyelet, it is far too close to the seat. 
Earlier today Marc from MNR put up a link to draft SVA manual, if you look at it, the first section 'E' does not apply to
'our' cars, the pre-fix refers to imports, I will try to find the link.
ATB Fozzie
'Racing is Life!...anything before or after is just waiting'....Steve McQueen
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Rorty
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| posted on 30/7/05 at 10:11 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Avoneer
And I suppose Westfield have got it all wrong to?
I detect a note of sarcasm. We're only trying to help Pat. Westfield, like everyone else you have sited have done it their way. Some just do it
better than others.
That's very interesting what britishtrident
says about Westfield's bar. I don't like references to tubular chassis members as bars, but in this case it really is!
Pat, if you continue with that wider arrangement as in your last post, and weld your threaded boses in at the appropriate height, you'll have as
close to a perfect set-up as I think you can get with a book chassis (short of welding another tube into your roll bar!). There's that damned
word bar again.
If you're using a seat with harness slots in the back, you mustn't let the seat take any of the load in event of an accident, it will
break the seat and allow the straps to straighten out, possibly resulting in your scone sounding the horn.
The straps should make as straight aline as possible from your shoulders to the attachments.
Two attachments per harness are definitely preferable.
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
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Fozzie
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| posted on 30/7/05 at 10:14 PM |
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Marcs posting:-
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=29398
'Racing is Life!...anything before or after is just waiting'....Steve McQueen
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Avoneer
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| posted on 30/7/05 at 10:14 PM |
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Thanks Fozzie,
I'll use two eyes per harness then - no probs.
I think I'm still well within the datum point as my seat bolt to 4mm bar, not a tube like on many chassis' and my GRP seats have a low
base.
Even with the eye flush on the plate, it's still more than 500mm from the seat squab.
As the eye bolt is 2" long, it can be raised for SVA purposes and spaced out with a few washers and still have plenty of thread in the insert
which will be (now) very firmly mounted.
Pat...
No trees were killed in the sending of this message.
However a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
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Avoneer
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| posted on 30/7/05 at 10:16 PM |
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Thanks Rorty.
Sorry if I sounded sarcy, it's in my nature being born and bred in Salford (Manchester) 
The top of my low back seats are parallel to just under the eyes of they are flush with the new plate, so there should be no problems there.
I can now see the light at the end of the tunnell.
Pat...
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However a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
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Fozzie
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| posted on 30/7/05 at 10:26 PM |
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Brilliant Pat, smiles all round then!
ATB Fozzie
'Racing is Life!...anything before or after is just waiting'....Steve McQueen
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Northy
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| posted on 30/7/05 at 10:31 PM |
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Looks much better to me Pat, and I know sweet FA!
Graham
Website under construction. Help greatfully received as I don't really know what I'm doing!
"If a man says something in the woods and there are no women there, is he still wrong?"
Built 2L 8 Valve Vx Powered Avon
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Avoneer
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| posted on 3/8/05 at 10:50 PM |
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Right,
The top plate is stitch welded at the moment (big 3" stitches though).
The tubes protrude 10mm above the plate (but can be cut down).
The tubes have a big fat weld on the underneath of the top plate.
The small bars across the bottom of the two chassis bars are welded at each end with big fat welds.
Each tube is also welded with a big fat weld on the bottom of these bars.
Don't think it's going anywhere.
How's that people???
[Edited on 3/8/05 by Avoneer]
 
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Avoneer
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| posted on 3/8/05 at 10:50 PM |
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Sorry, they looked crap in colour due to the surface rust.
Pat...
 
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907
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| posted on 3/8/05 at 11:11 PM |
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Brill
Yup, I'd trust my life to those.
Paul G
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Avoneer
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| posted on 3/8/05 at 11:35 PM |
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Thanks.
Will look nice once they are cleaned up and painted/powder coated.
Pat...
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However a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
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Rorty
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| posted on 4/8/05 at 12:25 AM |
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First rate! 
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
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Avoneer
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| posted on 4/8/05 at 06:26 AM |
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Thanks guys and for all your help.
Look really neat this way and gives me a nice flat panel to make fitting a hinged boot lid, camera mount or tonneau cover dead easy.
Pat...
No trees were killed in the sending of this message.
However a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
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Northy
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| posted on 4/8/05 at 06:57 AM |
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Loks good Pat, but looks like an Avon now! 
Graham
Website under construction. Help greatfully received as I don't really know what I'm doing!
"If a man says something in the woods and there are no women there, is he still wrong?"
Built 2L 8 Valve Vx Powered Avon
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Fozzie
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| posted on 4/8/05 at 08:47 AM |
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Well done Pat!
Excellent! good job!
ATB Fozzie
'Racing is Life!...anything before or after is just waiting'....Steve McQueen
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