Mr Whippy
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| posted on 4/2/20 at 06:45 AM |
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that's cool 
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watsonpj
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| posted on 12/2/20 at 04:48 PM |
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Agree the electric bike is cool any more info on that, I think an electric trike would be great.
Sorry its not the direction of the thread but would be great but harder to register than even IVA I guess.
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Uphill Racer
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| posted on 13/2/20 at 12:38 AM |
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Did Jo White build the frame for the bike?
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53Stix
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| posted on 13/2/20 at 09:33 AM |
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Yes, designed by myself and fabricated by Jo of Vulcan.
The project had superb potential to break the world record but sadly the designed of the motor was, shall we say, lacked a little integrity, and the
project seized before we were ever able to run it in anger.
Hence, it's now taking up space in my workshop!
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53Stix
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| posted on 29/2/20 at 03:02 PM |
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A brief update for anyone that's interested...
Managed to find a few evenings to start focusing in on some specific areas.
Had a stab at a bespoke 13x10.5 rear wheel using COTS parts where possible. Fairly confident the shaft/bearing arrangement works OK, although the cush
drive solution drives a bit of complexity into the design.
Acquired a seemingly representative model of a Powerlite caliper which I've adopted front and rear, and which packages up quite nicely at this
stage.
Also went a bit mad on a fancy front suspension linkage design with ARB that uses Hayabusa taper roller bearings, plus started playing around with
some layouts for forced induction 
Next up - chain tensioning strategy and a countershaft of some description, plus need to think about oil reservoir, battery and radiator locations.
 
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[Edited on 29/2/20 by 53Stix]
[Edited on 29/2/20 by 53Stix]
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Uphill Racer
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| posted on 1/3/20 at 09:24 PM |
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Sorry to hear that you were let down as the bike looked like it had great potential.
When Ian Scott was thinking about building his 4 wheel drive hill climber we had some interesting conversations regarding close coupled rear wheels
with no diff but induced rear wheel steer, a step to far though.
With regard to your front pushrod and ARB system, have you thought about using a third spring and a Tee ARB?
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Mr Whippy
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| posted on 2/3/20 at 07:34 AM |
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I notice you have not yet included the steering column or rack, how is that going to work? it looks like it will be coming down between your legs?? it
might be worth at some point soon mocking the cabin up out of wood etc just to check the ergonomics of it and whether it is possible to climb in and
out. I'd still like to see some steel beyond the pedals tbh, far too VW camper crumple zone for me.
I build large wooden R/C model aeroplanes and while designing them I will build many mock-up parts to see if they work the way I thought on paper.
Drawings or CAD models are all very well & good but actually having the thing in your hands so you can twist, bash or flex it can't be
beaten.
If I was you I'd get some balsa wood and build say a 12 inch model of the frame for testing. Could save you a lot of time & money later,
will also give you an idea of how much a pain all those joints are going to be
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53Stix
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| posted on 2/3/20 at 09:22 AM |
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@Uphill Racer - My relative inexperience shines bright here as whilst I've searched far and wide for suspension architectures which meet the
design brief, my lack of experience in four wheeled vehicles means I don't have much in the way of "applied" experience to critique
them over/above perceived mass and cost.
There are some interesting benchmarks buried in the depths of the Spartan build thread...
https://reversetrikes.freeforums.net/thread/102/spartan-trik
e-project-captainamerica
...although if I understand you correctly what you're referring to is primarily a means of controlling heave rather than roll, similarly to the
setup used by Cody Loveland on his original Enviate?
@Mr Whippy - Good suggestion! Steering column and rack are visible, but hard to distinguish in the images above to be fair. Current intention is a
Narrco FSAE rack...
https://fsaeparts.com/products/narrco-racks
...but, again, that's purely on the basis of not having stumbled across anything more suitable just yet. All suggestions welcome!
An ergonomic buck is certainly high on the agenda. I think there's a small number of COTS parts that I want to procure just to get a feel for
the proportions and layout (i.e. wheels, uprights, seat, steering wheel and pedalbox) and then the first job is to lay it all out on the garage floor
and start getting a feel for all these sort of things. You're totally right that you cannot get a genuinely good understanding using CAD alone,
and I'm regularly looking at the tape measure and steel rule on my desk to understand design proportions and clearances etc.
Your earlier comments about crash structure haven't fall on deaf ears - I'm thinking that a front-mounted crash structure again akin to
FSAE designs will be very sensible... I just haven't got round to modelling it just yet.
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53Stix
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| posted on 2/3/20 at 11:42 AM |
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Just a thought - is anyone likely to be attending Stoneleigh kit car show this year? I'm thinking of pining a Crowdfunder pitch around the time
of the event and am planning to use the show to network and pick up some knowledge on products/services etc. I'd be happy to arrange to some
meet-ups at the event!
-Rob
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Uphill Racer
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| posted on 4/3/20 at 01:06 AM |
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Yes, but no, Think a little more out of the box than with the Cody set up.
If you move the tee bar to the front of the chassis in the impact zone?
2 birds 1 stone?
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53Stix
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| posted on 4/3/20 at 02:24 PM |
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Struggling to visualise the setup and how it influences roll stiffness.... any images/sketches?
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53Stix
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| posted on 25/3/20 at 10:00 AM |
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With the requirement to stay at home recently I've taken the opportunity to try and push things forward a little on the design.
Powertrain is coming along nicely. Some very positive input from Richard @ TTS has prompted the move to a supercharger which appears to package quite
nicely.
 
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I've also modelled a simple rad and some ducting which somehow (by accident) seems to remind me of a fish or shark... I like it!
 
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A simple slash-cut exhaust could look pretty cool...
 
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Making good progress now
 
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Finally starting to think about fixturing. The chassis will be a b1tch to fabricate but with only a couple of compound-bent tubes I should think
it's not beyond the realms of possibility.
 
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53Stix
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| posted on 25/3/20 at 10:32 AM |
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Here's a couple of shots to show the intended split for the powertrain 'module', which allows the main frame to pick up on the
cylinder head mounting lugs once installed.
 
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And for context, this is a 95th % male in the drivers seat. Snug but hopefully sufficient. Plenty of head clearance in the event of a rollover too.
 
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And finally, speaking of rollover, I've made an assumption for the CoG position and used this to map out the LatAcc threshold (I.e. the angle
made by the cone projecting down from the CoG).
 
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I'm lead to believe that the angle created by the cone when it's tangential to the vehicle contact triangle is a good suggestion (AFAIK)
as to the LatAcc capabilities (i.e. the point at which you'll either roll or slide).
The wider the angle, the harder you can corner, which could be achieved by either lowering the CoG, moving the CoG forward or changing the
wheelbase/track relationship.
The trick is presumably to make sure that you slide before you roll in every scenario... easier said than done I guess!
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stevieweavie
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| posted on 17/4/20 at 07:47 PM |
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It's worth noting that the above representation of roll over ignores jacking effects of the front suspension and rear swingarm, which tend to
raise the CoG, fluid and driver movement, lateral tyre deflection, and gyroscopic effects of rotating wheels, engine and transmission. These can tend
to have negative effects on keeping the vehicle the right way up. A lot of performance trikes have rolled over in the past. I saw an ultra narrow
rear tracked Formula Student car roll over years ago, inspite of all the calculations they'd done which said it was stable. Same for the Owen
Greenwood trike that raced in the sidecar class in the 60's.
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53Stix
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| posted on 17/4/20 at 08:05 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by stevieweavie
It's worth noting that the above representation of roll over ignores jacking effects of the front suspension and rear swingarm, which tend to
raise the CoG, fluid and driver movement, lateral tyre deflection, and gyroscopic effects of rotating wheels, engine and transmission. These can tend
to have negative effects on keeping the vehicle the right way up. A lot of performance trikes have rolled over in the past. I saw an ultra narrow
rear tracked Formula Student car roll over years ago, inspite of all the calculations they'd done which said it was stable. Same for the Owen
Greenwood trike that raced in the sidecar class in the 60's.
Absolutely agree! I'm using this 'rule of thumb' as a guideline when making fundamental architectural decisions rather than anything
else.
The theory should be sound, but I don't believe it'll ever allow me to accurately and repeatably predict a rollover event because, as you
quite rightly say, in reality it's dependent on so many inputs/variables (most of them highly dynamic in nature and almost impossible to define
transiently).
[Edited on 17/4/20 by 53Stix]
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53Stix
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| posted on 5/6/20 at 02:12 PM |
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Hi all - hope you're keeping safe and well?
A quick progress report on Darkside, as things are moving forwards at quite a rate!
I recently launched drksd.info as means of establishing interest & awareness in the concept. I've
made no secret of my vision to be able to scale up this design to offer a credible/exciting alternative for those looking for a really immersive
driving experience, so this is a vital step in establishing some confidence in the concept.
Thankfully the initial feedback has been overwhelmingly positive, which is really encouraging!
In parallel, I've created social medial accounts on Facebook, Instagram & Twitter... I won't hound you all with requests to
follow/like/share, but clearly if you're interested in the project then it would be worth finding and tagging on to one or more of those
accounts.
Lastly, on Monday I also launched an open design competition, which aims to find a 'look' that aligns to the lean & mean design
philosophy. If it's of interest to anyone, do feel free to get involved - head to
drksd.info/competition to check it out, and also keep an eye on upcoming automotive
press/publications 
Best,
-Rob
 
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Solomon
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| posted on 19/8/20 at 09:22 PM |
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Hey Rob,
Awesome stuff here. I actually just stumbled on your build thread doing research for the design competition haha. It's really cool seeing hwo
this project has evolved! I'm doing sketches at the moment but I can't wait to throw this into 3D space. I was wondering if you have a
.wire i could use as a skeleton to make sure the body is to proportion? Not sure how strict you want to keep the terms of the comp, but I'd love
to chat about design direction if you're interested. Anyway, hope to hear from you, this thing's going to be a monster!
-Riley
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53Stix
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| posted on 20/8/20 at 07:34 AM |
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Hi Riley - thanks for reaching out, very pleased to hear that I have your vote of confidence!
As you'll appreciate things have got crazy busy since I launched the website, and moreso since the announcement of FS' involvement in the
Design Competition... >160 Expressions of Interest so far!
In terms of provision of a wireframe or CAD model I'm afraid I'll respectfully decline, for two reasons. Firstly, I'd like to retain
my IP rather than have it out in the public domain, for obvious reasons, and secondly in terms of the design competition it's important to me
that it's offered on a level playing field, i.e. equally accessible to everyone regardless of background, education, or access to specialist
toolsets or software.
I appreciate that the submissions may not be quite as refined but hopefully this will afford everyone the same opportunity to explore their creative
side, and in any case I anticipate that the winning design will need some minor revisions to make sure it's fit for purpose and fully
productionisable etc, which will be done in collaboration with the chosen designer.
In terms of providing commentary on design direction, I'll happily let you know what I think of as good/bad respectively if you were to reach
out to me directly - I would afford anyone the same courtesy - however in the interests of professionalism I'll not be actively guiding designs,
if you know what I mean!
Finally, don't forget that you're free to submit as many entries as you wish, so you could very well submit numerous designs as you see
fit...
Hope this helps, and thanks again for your support!
-Rob
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Mr Whippy
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| posted on 20/8/20 at 08:51 AM |
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You know I had a problem which I suspect will apply to your trike seeing the wheel selection you have gone for.
I built a beach buggy, a vw based one which was super light, I could pick the front up right off the ground, I'd fitted 225's on the front
as they looked cool but which needed only 13psi to be fully inflated. When I took it for testing it was so lightly loaded, the tyres couldn't
even grip the rolling road for the brake test, the wheels would just stop turning and slide on the rollers. The tester gave up and just took it for a
drive and it passed that way. But stopping it was always entertaining... really it needed much narrower tyres.
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53Stix
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| posted on 20/8/20 at 09:29 AM |
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Hi Mr Whippy - thanks for your insight.
This reinforces the need for a concept demonstrator to iron out all these potential improvements. The spec I've landed on at the moment is a
starting point, but this whole venture is all around credibility and offering a product which not only looks the part, but also performs like nothing
else too.
I've put alot of effort into understanding mass/inertia and positioning, which was instrumental in defining the architecture that I've
arrived at, so once we have a mule vehicle built up we can see if the theory translates into practise! As far as I'm concerned, the need to run
through a robust series of test/configuration/validation exercises is a given... I'd certainly not be willing to put my name to it nor take a
penny of anyone's money until I know it's totally fit for purpose. And, for what it's worth, I'm totally happy to be proven
wrong! :-)
Thanks again - looking forward to being able to update you with progress in due course!
-Rob
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Solomon
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| posted on 22/8/20 at 12:11 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by 53Stix
Hi Riley - thanks for reaching out, very pleased to hear that I have your vote of confidence!
As you'll appreciate things have got crazy busy since I launched the website, and moreso since the announcement of FS' involvement in the
Design Competition... >160 Expressions of Interest so far!
In terms of provision of a wireframe or CAD model I'm afraid I'll respectfully decline, for two reasons. Firstly, I'd like to retain
my IP rather than have it out in the public domain, for obvious reasons, and secondly in terms of the design competition it's important to me
that it's offered on a level playing field, i.e. equally accessible to everyone regardless of background, education, or access to specialist
toolsets or software.
I appreciate that the submissions may not be quite as refined but hopefully this will afford everyone the same opportunity to explore their creative
side, and in any case I anticipate that the winning design will need some minor revisions to make sure it's fit for purpose and fully
productionisable etc, which will be done in collaboration with the chosen designer.
In terms of providing commentary on design direction, I'll happily let you know what I think of as good/bad respectively if you were to reach
out to me directly - I would afford anyone the same courtesy - however in the interests of professionalism I'll not be actively guiding designs,
if you know what I mean!
Finally, don't forget that you're free to submit as many entries as you wish, so you could very well submit numerous designs as you see
fit...
Hope this helps, and thanks again for your support!
-Rob
Hey Rob,
Thanks for getting back to me. I had a feeling you'd respond as such and completely understand, people are quick to steal and replicate IP these
days. Would you mind if I built a quick frame model off of your sketches to then model the body over? I promise it will be purely aesthetic.
Unfortunately I'll probabaly be sticking to one design submission as Uni will be starting up shortly and projects are already beginning. I will
however shoot you some sketches and/or renders once things are a bit more refined. What's the best way to reach you?
Glad to hear the project is gaining so much traction and I can't wait to see how it eventually turns out!
Best, Riley
p.s. I'm quite curious about how you ended up linking with FS, if you're keen to share
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53Stix
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| posted on 23/8/20 at 11:20 AM |
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Hi Riley - thanks!
Nothing stopping you building up your own models etc
Best way to reach me is contact@drksd.info
Frank and I have worked together on some previous projects unrelated to Darkside - I'm very grateful that he's seen fit to support the
design competition!
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