I was considering puting my tank here.
I know it will be higher, but feel safer.
comments.
David
I'm locating my fuel tank in a different (safer!) location - I thought I'd share the mock up -
http://picasaweb.google.com/lsdweb0/WynEdwardsWestfieldRebuild#5300909932620940290
and
http://picasaweb.google.com/lsdweb0/WynEdwardsWestfieldRebuild#5300910170398577010
It won;t be cardboard!
Wyn
Why is that safer? wouldn't a ruptured fuel tank from a side impact cover the driver in fuel and a stink in the drivers bay from the breather? Is
the battery going next to it?
Not heard of any rear ended 7's bursting in flames from the tank and so not sure if the move from a tried and tested position is worth the
effort.
Hope you don't mind these comments!
Take care
Rich
if you are concerned about being read eded then put some extra chassis rails around the tank.
The other thing with moving the tank is the weight distribution and the affects on the handling that you may get.
Just my 2 pence worth.
have to agree ^
i'm never too sure on putting a fuel tank so close to an engine. heat, exhausts, etc
Reason number 1 -
picture And yes that is my chassis (but before I owned
it). I believe the corners on a 7 are far more vulnerable than the position I'm putting the tank in.
Secondly - weight distribution. Whilst the tank will only carry about 5kg of fuel, I want to get the distribution right and the early indications are
this is the best place. Battery will go wherever it needs to for correct weight distribution.
Thirdly - weight. This position will reduce the need for long fuel lines to the rear.
I have no problems with mounting it close to the engine (my single seater one is even closer! Many hillclimb single seaters have their fuel tank in
the engine bay eg Jedi. The vent willl run away from the engine bay. The one concern I have is refuelling but I will be careful and wait for things
to cool off first.
Regards
Wyn
[Edited on 10/2/09 by lsdweb]
Hi Wyn.
You have every right to be concerned about the location off the tank at the very rear of the car. This is why Westfield made it compulcery on there
race cars and championship that the tanks where moved to above the axle / diff area. We our self's make a safety tank that is re positioned from
the rear due to the many incidents that have been seen whith 7 types racing.
Also locating a large mass such as the fuel tank closer to the center of the CoG on the car will improve the handling and balance. The only things to
check are the MSA regulations regarding drivers space and the % that must be available for the passenger space And also it must be behind a fully
sealed flame proof panel / bulkhead. The early race Westfields we built all had the tanks built as dummy passenger seats but they finally nailed us on
the 75% off drivers space available for the passenger and would not accept the sealed tank as being a seat LOL. Certainly worth pursuing that location
though.
Cheers Matt
interesting - why is it so high up and not resting on the rails?
it could be argued that there is no safe place in a car to carry inflammable fuel; GT40 had twin side tanks.
personally I quite like the new location, especially if the cars going to have a cage too and far better than right at the back. Just look at the chassis damage at the rear, just where the old tank was.
Dax mount the Rush m/c tank in the middle. IMHO, it's a better location for mass centralisation, impact protection, freeing up the boot area
for, er, boot space (wish I had some on the Indy) and reducing the length of the fuel line run.
Also IMHO, if the seven is hit hard enough that the tank gets punctured in that location, you will have other things to worry about!
quote:
Originally posted by lsdweb
Reason number 1 -
picture And yes that is my chassis (but before I owned it). I believe the corners on a 7 are far more vulnerable than the position I'm putting the tank in.
Secondly - weight distribution. Whilst the tank will only carry about 5kg of fuel, I want to get the distribution right and the early indications are this is the best place. Battery will go wherever it needs to for correct weight distribution.
Thirdly - weight. This position will reduce the need for long fuel lines to the rear.
I have no problems with mounting it close to the engine (my single seater one is even closer! Many hillclimb single seaters have their fuel tank in the engine bay eg Jedi. The vent willl run away from the engine bay. The one concern I have is refuelling but I will be careful and wait for things to cool off first.
Regards
Wyn
[Edited on 10/2/09 by lsdweb]
Thank guys
Matt - I toyed with the fake seat but knew there had been problems before! I will have a bulkhead between the tank and the passenger compartment -
it's a bit of a gamble with the scrutineers over space - I could end up in Sport Libre but that's not a huge problem for me.
02GF74 - it's up there as it'll have the bike fuel pump mounted in the base - this is a bit of a compromise as, ideally, i'd like it on
the floor, but then I'd have to have low and high pressure pumps, filters and a swirl pot, adding to the weight and complexity!
[Edited on 10/2/09 by lsdweb]
and did the damage seen on the frame cause a rupture or fire??
Not wanting to hijack...but...
I was considering puting my tank here.
I know it will be higher, but feel safer.
comments.
David
quote:
Originally posted by dogwood
Not wanting to hijack...but...
I was considering puting my tank here.
I know it will be higher, but feel safer.
comments.
...
David
quote:
Originally posted by iank
looks like where Procomp and Westfield put their race tanks. See Matt's post above
I'm not sure if the tank did rupture during the shunt but it was pretty damaged. The photo of the chassis damage
(here) shows how much damage occurred.
I'm competing in hillclimbs where the scenery is very close (been into to it a few times too) so I want to trya dn make it as safe as possible
and maximise the balance.
Wyn
It did get quite a shunt
Ive often thought about the space between the axle and the passenger cell twin tank teed at the bottom
And yes we have seen the tanks split and pour fuel every where....think there`s a tube clip of a caterham race that ended up bad
Hi
Quote "Ive often thought about the space between the axle and the passenger cell twin tank teed at the bottom"
Thats exactly where our LA petrol tanks go. The one that was involved in an accident wich had a 50+ Mph rear end shunt survived perfectly and drove to
the pits afterwards . Shame the pump had split in half as he could have finished the race if it hadn't been red flagged.
Cheers Matt
How do you guys attach the tanks to the chassis? Brackets with bolts? Reason I ask is because here in the States, the racing rules say the tank has to have separate straps, though this may apply only to fuel cells.
Hi
over here it is generally accepted that they should be mounted using separate straps. However there's a lot that are still directly bolted to the
chassis. In the pic of our own above there is little choice but to bolt it to the rear bulkhead. But is out of harms way and little chance of it
moving in any impact. It is the ones that are mounted at the very rear on a seven type and bolted directly to the chassis that worry me. There's
only one outcome and that's the tank getting ripped of it's mountings and fuel every where as has happened in many racing sevens with the
tanks mounted there and bolted down.
Cheers Matt
Just to clarfiy, it's going just behind the engine?
I was toying with the idea of putting the engine in the back and having the fuel tank up front but then decided against the headache. Is the 5kg
weight the tank or the fuel? My only concern is heat from the engine or a splash while refueling, otherwise I'd have doubts that a small tank
like that would be ripped away so easily.
Oh and red flag= end of race or just stopped for now?
Yes - behind the engine. Many single seaters, including mine, have the fuel tank situated right in front of the engine - mine actually has the exhaust
headers almost touching the aluminium bulkhead in between.
Refuelling is my only concern - I'll probably build some kind of shield that I'll pop in place when refuelling. It'll have some kind
of drip / catch tray to direct fuel away too.
5kg is the approximate weight of the fuel - that's roughly 6.5 litres which is more than enough!
quote:
and did the damage seen on the frame cause a rupture or fire??
If Refuelling finds a way,then will be very intresting and also worths a try....
And here's the tank!
I forgot to tell Spencer about the fuel return fitting so that needs to go on.
[Edited on 4/3/09 by lsdweb]
Rescued attachment fuel tank.JPG
And just realised that the bike pump I'm using has a built in return! So no need for another fitting!
And here it is plonked in place.JPG)
With a bit of jiggery-pokery, Donkervoort manage to fit two tanks between the occupants' bums and the rear suspension. Yep filler points in the
rear wheel arches. Clever use of space.
Rescued attachment Donkervoort fuel tank.jpg
quote:
Originally posted by idl1975
Dax mount the Rush m/c tank in the middle. IMHO, it's a better location for mass centralisation, impact protection, freeing up the boot area for, er, boot space (wish I had some on the Indy) and reducing the length of the fuel line run.
Also IMHO, if the seven is hit hard enough that the tank gets punctured in that location, you will have other things to worry about!
quote:
Originally posted by lsdweb
Reason number 1 -
picture And yes that is my chassis (but before I owned it). I believe the corners on a 7 are far more vulnerable than the position I'm putting the tank in.
Secondly - weight distribution. Whilst the tank will only carry about 5kg of fuel, I want to get the distribution right and the early indications are this is the best place. Battery will go wherever it needs to for correct weight distribution.
Thirdly - weight. This position will reduce the need for long fuel lines to the rear.
I have no problems with mounting it close to the engine (my single seater one is even closer! Many hillclimb single seaters have their fuel tank in the engine bay eg Jedi. The vent willl run away from the engine bay. The one concern I have is refuelling but I will be careful and wait for things to cool off first.
Regards
Wyn
[Edited on 10/2/09 by lsdweb]
I've considered putting the fuel tank in the same spot, but I can't get the tank size I need there while still having passengers over 4ft
tall.
I need 40L tank capacity which is about 18x18x18" (45cm). If I didnt have a tube already nicely welded in place over top I might be able to fit
one there though.
Way I see it:
Pros:
Closer to CG
shorter fuel lines to rupture
less fuel slosh (square but tall tank)
less likely to get hit
Cons:
no where to put battery (battery cables are heavier than fuel lines with fuel)
safe refueling is more difficult
tank vent may give off fumes noticable in cockpit
The tank is designed for sprints and hillclimbs so will be more than adequate.
There's loads of room next to the tank for the battery or I may locate it somewhere in the engine bay, dependent on space, weight, cable runs
etc..